I hate cars

I figured I would post this on acurazine instead of DIYMA because I think it's more of a car issue than an equipment or tuning issue.

So I have the 3-way in my sig: AE IB15 subs, Dyn MW182 9" midbass in the doors, 430 3.5" midrange in the kicks, and 110 tweeters in the stock location firing at the windshield. I mention location because I think it has a lot to do with my issue.

I've put many months into tuning since I got the PS8 processor trying to follow the "standard" of letting the midrange play as low as possible and cover most of the frequencies. I've got it to sound good running the midrange 200hz to 3.8khz but it seems like there's always something missing no matter how much I put into time alignment and eq. This midrange covers 200hz easily, it's not an equipment issue.

Running the midbass 60-700hz and the midrange 700hz-5.5khz with no eq and 5 minutes worth of tuning sounds so much better than months worth of tuning trying to run things the way we're told we should run a 3-way.

I got the best sound from these crossover points back when I had the MS8 and different speakers as well which is another reason I'm ruling out equipment and tuning and thinking its a TL thing.

Tonight I decided to go back to these crossover points and it amazes me each time at how good it sounds and stages. This is the first time I've gone with the higher crossover points since I doubled the power to the midbass to 300w and the dynamics and clarity are awesome. Last time with 150w I ran into clipping which muddied up the lower midrange and I had the stock grills in the doors.

On to my question, anyone else who's running a 3-way with the mids in the kicks experience this same thing? I'm guessing its the center console possibly causing the issue. I've talked to a guy with a Caddie that has a large console and he also has the 182/430/110 combo except he has four 430s. He also runs a 700hz crossover between the midbass and midrange. He has a null at 500-600jz and a peak around 1600hz when running the midrange low like most people do. This is exactly what I'm experiencing. I have to cut 1khz-2.5khz a lot and it sounds like a lot of detail is missing. This detail comes back when I let the 9s cover the lower midrange which is a bit counterintuitive. I also do not have to cut the 1-2.5khz range when crossed over higher. Is this common in cars with large center consoles or should I look for another reason. Just trying to get to the bottom of this, I'm very content with the sound. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

With the 4's on top of the dash I get a peak at 630. I do not remember any issues when I took a quick look at the 9's total response but that has been a year ago. Mine stay in the 40/50-160/200 area.

What size enclosure are the mids in?

I hate cars

My midranges are infinite baffle. What I mean is they're in the kicks, no enclosure on the backside. I have the whole area behind the mids filled with a "stuffing" made of various pieces of foam and fabrics to hopefully absorb the back wave. While not perfect, the kicks seal pretty well to the carpet since they're modded factory kicks. I know you can't seal to carpet but I hope it's good enough. The top of the kicks are sealed off as well.

I had the mids in small enclosures for a while but didn't like the sound. I don't know if it was the backwave causing it or enclosure resonance but there was some major harshness. I don't know the size of the enclosure, Jerry would probably know. Recommended box volume is 0.5-4L I believe and I'm sure they were on the small end of that recommendation. Anyway, no enclosure currently.

I'm really enjoying the smooth detailed sound with these crossover points. It bothers me that I can't figure out why it sounds better now with no eq and very little TA by bringing up the highpass. Im thinking its a phase problem and ive tried polarity every which way with my phase CD. With the more traditional crossover points it never seemed completely in phase. Now on the same CD it sounds in phase. Thanks for the response Kirk.

Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

Drop this in and let us know how it does.

Tweet-4.5K 6db
Mid 3K-250 6db
Mid bass 50-160 6db
Sub 40 6db

Flip the midbass/sub in and out of phase with each other. Might wind up with everything in and the sub out.

Litz-R filters.

You will have to EQ the sub above the crossover point to blend it in with the midbass. Probably up to 180-ish. Also eq the midbass below their crossover point to blend in with the sub. Drop a sub sonic filter on the midbass or cut (with EQ) where ever they stop making music and are just moving.

I hate cars

Thanks Kirk. I'll try this as soon as I get home this afternoon. I've actually got a preset with all 6db filters using LR filters and TA'd so it won't be that much work.

About the midbass, would you prefer it to play all the way down as far as it can safely and effectively or do you want it actually cut off at 50hz?

Thanks again.

rich20730

Subscribed.

I pulled all my amps out of my trunk about a month ago in order to clean up my install, so it's been a while since I had a good tuning session. I think I'll leave work early today give these crossover points and slopes a try. Any particular reason for going with 6db slopes?

IHC, our setups are very similar (3-way with midbass in the doors, mids in the kicks, tweets on the dash). Crossover points are also pretty close to what you listed (Tweets: 4khz 24b LW, Mids: 300hz-4khz 24db LW, Midbass: 63hz-300 24db LW. Can't recall off the top of my head where the major peaks and dips were, but I do remember there being some persistent issues that seemed to correspond with door/kick/dash locations. I'll take some screenshots today of my settings and measurements and report back.

I hate cars

That would be great. It's nice to have someone else with the same configuration to compare notes with. My main problem right now is no RTA but that's about to change. I believe Jerry also used a higher midbass to midrange transition in his 3-way in the same locations.

I'm currently at 60/700/5,000 all at 48db and its sounding really nice. I'm going to try out Kirks suggested settings this weekend. I wanted to do it immediately but I've been working way too many hours, very little free time. If you get the chance I would be interested in how my current crossover points would sound on your system.

Are you the one running the dual Anarchy midbasses?

rich20730

Yep, that's me. Taking some measurements now. The first set of measurements will be flat with a wide passband. Figured that would be most helpful for comparison. Man it gets hot quick in my car once I turn the engine off

Midbass - No EQ, 20hz-1khz @24db BW:


Major roll-off starting around 400hz. After cutting down those peaks a bit, 700hz seems feasible, but to maintain headroom and efficiency, crossing under 500hz seems likes the best option with the Anarchies. Going to a 3-way really helped a lot because I've always had a huge hump between ~ 180hz to 300hz that I had to EQ like crazy in a 2-way in order to bring it level with the midrange frequencies. In a 3-way, that big hump pairs nicely with the response of an efficient dedicated midrange.

I hate cars

Is that top end roll off because of the car or is it the speaker? I thought the Anarchys will do 2-3k no problem, right? Looking forward to your results. Is there a certain mic and software you would recommend?

rich20730

I'm gonna say it's the car. Here are the the graphs from when Zaph tested the anarchies:



The un-EQ'd response when I had the ID XS-65's was pretty much the same. Had to do a wide Q cut of about 15db around 200-250hz to bring it in line with the midrange frequencies.

I would recommend the Dayton UMM-6 or the Minidsp UMIK-1. If you get them from Cross Spectrum Labs, they come with an individual calibration file rather than just the batch calibration file they usually come with. You can get either for $95 http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...ated_umm6.html

If you have an ipad, I really like the Audiotools app from Studio Six Digital. The only drawbacks are that you'll need the Apple camera connection kit ($30) in order to connect the USB mic, and the in-app purchases can add up if you want some of the more advanced modules.

If you plan to use Audiotools, this would be great:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-itestmic.html

Room EQ wizard is awesome, and free. It has a little bit of a learning curve, but it's much simpler now with a USB mic like the UMM-6 or the UMIK-1

rich20730

Here's the Un-EQ'd midrange response (Scanspeak 10f):



Not as bad as it seems once you consider the actual frequency response of the signal from the headunit:


Glad someone posted that because up until that point I was going crazy trying to find out the cause of that dip starting at 800hz. Now I just boost it til it's flat.

As you can see, there's a fair bit of high frequency roll-off on the driver's side mid, so it appears that directivity is still a factor even with small drivers in the kick panels. Another thing I've noticed about having mids in the kicks is that they are very sensitive to obstruction from my foot and leg.