The J32 NA project. Opel and IHateCars please join in!

[indecisivefool]

[quote=Opel;11455078]Indecisivefool: Do you read any of the posts of you just glance while scrolling down impatiently to post something. Serioulsy, we're talking about a FULLY BUILD motor, and you post a "Stroker with NOS" What unreliable mod has been done to it that would effect normal steet driveability? Except the fact that its risking to blow at any time (when you spray), doesn't take away its steetability. It can be driven normal off spray, But Is it reving to 10k? does it have some big cams? Is it running 12.5:1-13:1 CR? [quote] maybe your right Iam just so impatient I will keep it NA from now on buddy Any chance you will be in the DC area so I can run that 375hp car? last SC cl I ran was not fast at all I know yours will put up a better fight

This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members. Register your free account today and become a member on Acurazine!

[Opel]

Originally Posted by indecisivefool

1. I know the guy who built it
2. there is NO GOOD ECU management yeah aem Fic will do but ASK inlinepro (MATT,John) they will tell you FIC SUCKS!!!

If FIC will do, why isn't it good? Why isn't it good when you can reliably run a turbo/SC on the TL? When you can still have every other feature still function in your TL. When it's proved to be reliable every step of the way.
AFR control
Timing retard
Vtec control.

It wont advance timing, but would you really do that with boost?

So what else do you need it to do?

Have you actually ever ran one in your TL?

Remember, some things work perfect on one car, while they suck on another.
And to say such thing as "It completely sucks" only because it doesn't work well on a different car is plain stupid.

A while back I mentioned to a tuner that i would be getting the FIC for my car, and he said, "oh they suck, because I tried tried tuning a TSX with it and just wouldn't work well"
So i said: Well i have a TL, and that's fine, Ill go somewhere else.

either way, we're drifting off subject.

[Sonnick]

Originally Posted by indecisivefool

I ran 13.30@105 with DR 1.9 60ft in april 2009
after a few mods ran a 13.4@106 with streettire 2.1 60ft
so I think my car(asianImports built) with DR should run 13.0-13.1
All-Motor stock 3.2L

2004 TL with Navi fastest pass 12.6@112 65 shot
2003 CL fastest pass...SIG... my car should run 12.3-12.2on a 75shot

the reason why is I raced a SC s2000 360whp ran 12.5@116 2.260ft (so its a 12.0 car w/slicks) and did a 2nd gear roll to 5th and pulled 1 car. so if a can spay out the hole and pull a 1.8 60ft 12.0 here I come

NEXT year FIRST and Only CL in the 11s(hopefully)

Nice times. I doubt the 75 shot will push you into the 11s though, especially when you ran 13.3 thus far. As you get faster, proportionately, you need more power to see the same decrease in ET as you did from say 14.0 to 13.3, then from 13.3 to 12.6. The same 0.7 is gonna take more HP the faster you go. Good luck tho!

How did you pull on a 116mph car from a roll when you trap 105? Lol. That's like saying I pulled on an M5.

Even if you sprayed, he still has you beat by about 5mph. Pulling on a car that traps 5mph higher in the 1/4 from a roll race is hard to do.

[Opel]

Originally Posted by indecisivefool

maybe your right Iam just so impatient I will keep it NA from now on buddy

Any chance you will be in the DC area so I can run that 375hp car? last SC cl I ran was not fast at all I know yours will put up a better fight

Lol, its obvious that you're so eager to prove your points.
so here: No i wont be around DC area, and you will completely destroy my car

Now, lets get back to the thread. Any good ideas you can share to assist with the full build NA j32 to reach 450 whp?

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by indecisivefool

1. I know the guy who built it
2. there is NO GOOD ECU management yeah aem Fic will do but ASK inlinepro (MATT,John) they will tell you FIC SUCKS!!!

Yet it's still better (safer)than nitrous. I'm not one of those biased people who say it sucks yet have never run it or have run it but half assed it. I even ran a 35shot on my TL when it was new.

It's an instant in cylinder pressure spike, it can be hard on parts. If something goes wrong there's no time to back out of it. I feel much more comfortable with a glorified air compressor forcing air in the engine the way it was designed then chemically boosting it. Turbos are so much easier on parts than nitrous even when it's tuned right. Look at all the fast 6 and 7 second guys that are switching from nitrous to turbos. It's not about the power, it's about being able to last as many races as possible without rebuilding or breaking along the way.

Sure, you have your PWM solenoids now at an attempt at being linear but they're completely unreliable. You can mulit-stage it but again, complexity and reliability.

As for the bottle fills, it depends on usage but I had mine set to trigger off of a wide open throttle switch and shut off by a hobbs switch when it hit 10psi boost. I was going through a 10lb bottle at least every month, sometimes twice that often. $40 a month adds up and that was just for a short burst to spool the turbo. Maybe I used it more than normal because it was triggered every time my foot hit the floor, who knows.

I'm not making excuses, if I were to run you in my GN and you beat me I would shake your hand, not complain about you squeezing. But for the majority on this board, nitrous isn't where it's at. Having the power all the time and in a linear fashion controlled by the gas pedal is just so much better in a daily driverIt looks like you're running great times and 11s with a J32 and especially FWD is nothing to sneeze at.

FWIW:







Non functional now but used to hustle at the races.

[indecisivefool]

Opel
I havn't ran the Fic in my CL-or my TL but did have it in my s2000
now the FIC is the best system out for the CL-TL but Iam going to run a haltech next year so....(true standalone)

ohh and I figured out a way to ADVANCE timing in a FIC on a CL should also work for a TL

And I have no ideas how to get 450whp ALL-motor
__
______________

Sonnick
maybe I wasnt clear (Iam sorry) but a ran 13.3@105 ALL-MOTOR
when I raced that s2000 I had a 75shot

[tenzingsherpa]

i agree with IHC. Turbo and Nos are both great, however Nos may have more negative consequences. I do however know that nos is the most hp/per dollar, and is perfectly allowed for individuals not wanting to waste the money on a turbo/supercharger. I mean i can think of alot of things i could be doing with 5k than spending it on a turbo, but i do love that BLOW OFF VALVE SOUND!!!!! AHHHH MUSIC TO MY EARS!!!! anyway indecisivefool u got some AMAZING TIMES!!! I hope to see number like that one day!!!
j36+turbo+Nos =9 second beast!!!!!

[indecisivefool]

I hate cars
Much respect to you I see your not a rookie to street/stip racing
I had a chance to get one (GN) for $8k didnt buy it because it didnt have an armrest LOL foolish

[indecisivefool]

Originally Posted by tenzingsherpa

i agree with IHC. Turbo and Nos are both great, however Nos may have more negative consequences. I do however know that nos is the most hp/per dollar, and is perfectly allowed for individuals not wanting to waste the money on a turbo/supercharger. I mean i can think of alot of things i could be doing with 5k than spending it on a turbo, but i do love that BLOW OFF VALVE SOUND!!!!! AHHHH MUSIC TO MY EARS!!!! anyway indecisivefool u got some AMAZING TIMES!!! I hope to see number like that one day!!!
j36+turbo+Nos =9 second beast!!!!!

yeah I love the sound also, my friend has a 10sec hatch hopefully it will run low 10s this weekend
you coming down to MIR for the world cup

[tenzingsherpa]

YO where is that located??

[indecisivefool]

I live in arlington VA

[tenzingsherpa]

so what time is it at? im interested see though i work sat and sun till 5pm??? and i live in PA u think i will be able to make it??? i would be cool to come!!

[indecisivefool]

http://www.importvsdomestic.com/

[tenzingsherpa]

yo i might hit it up!! i'll have to see if i can come later after 5pm on sunday or just take off sunday and come all day!! i will see, that shit looks tight!!!!

[phee]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

That's good info on the bore and stroke of the various engines.

I'm not sure why Honda went with the undersquare engine in the J35 and J37 other than emissions. From a performance standpoint the J32 looks real nice.

With the longer stroke comes higher piston speeds at a given rpm. You could theoretically spin the J32 higher on stockish parts all else being equal. Again, all else being equal, a 3.2L is going to make more power at 8,000rpm than a 3.5L will limited to 6,800rpm NA.

If you're going the turbo route, making the power isn't the problem, it's how streetable do you want it to be. Even with the same hp goals, I would prefer the larger engine. Turbo lag will be less and drivability will be better.

To clarify one thing, you can't say certain parts are limited to a certain psi of boost. They're limited by hp. So stock rods may be limited to 12psi on a stock top end. Port the heads and do other mods where you make the same power at 7psi, you're now limited to 7psi.

You guys haven't begun to tap into the hp potential of the J32. I've seen the stock head flow numbers. All you need is to lower to compression to the neighborhood of 9:1 and throw 20psi on top of it and you will make more power than the stock bottom will ever hold. If the bottom would take it, you're looking at 700whp at 20psi with no other mods.

??
so was i right about the 3.5? can someone explain

[phee]

Originally Posted by indecisivefool

3.6L with a 75shot built by AsianImports will make 380-400whp and have stock drivability+reliable and will run LOW LOW 12s like 12.0 with the right track set-up

We have a stock 2004 tl w/140k miles that runs 12.6 with a 65shot

if you want to go fast have Asian Imports build it every car he builds(j32a) runs 12s

Now a turbo-kit for a TL will have to be custom and to have stock drivability it will need to be tune. which there are no aftermarket ecu tunning for the tl,cl so...

JUST SPRAY IT!!! lol

u never mentioned that it was a 3.6 in the drag times thread did you?

[ssmtl2nv]

Originally Posted by Opel

lmao, can you tell my front bumper needs to get painted? yes, it was parked there till about 12:30 shhhhhhhhh

hahaha na i cant tell..... i always c u there, im jus gonna walk up 2 u next time, STALKER, lol,,,, i dont have the boosted 3g anymore.. im rolling in a g37s 6spd, now.. it was parked right next to u.

[indecisivefool]

Originally Posted by phee

u never mentioned that it was a 3.6 in the drag times thread did you?

3.6.... its a STOCK J32A where did you get 3.6 from, its like Iam repeating myself

the car in the video STOCK-J32A hes only had the car for 3weeks in that video (didnt you see the papertags)

[phee]

Originally Posted by indecisivefool

3.6.... its a STOCK J32A where did you get 3.6 from, its like Iam repeating myself

the car in the video STOCK-J32A hes only had the car for 3weeks in that video (didnt you see the papertags)

from the post i quoted. you know, the post you made, stating that a 3.6 would put down a certain amount of power...

then you posted a video of the tl running twelves..

which led me to believe the tl has a 3.6.

if thats not the case then i guess you were just doing more advertising for that asian imports place and the video had nothing to do with an actual fucking 3.6.

[indecisivefool]

Originally Posted by phee

from the post i quoted. you know, the post you made, stating that a 3.6 would put down a certain amount of power...

then you posted a video of the tl running twelves..

which led me to believe the tl has a 3.6.

if thats not the case then i guess you were just doing more advertising for that asian imports place and the video had nothing to do with an actual fucking 3.6.

Nope, the video had nothing to do with an actual fucking 3.6 LOL

And the advertising I do for Asian Import is not really that.
the Owner happens to be a friend I knew since 11th grade who has put me on bored with these CL-TLs

I send him customers and he does the same for me.

[gerzand]

hey people stop the crapping in my NA thread. Go elsewhere if you want to bicker. This thread is meant for constructive advise/opinions only.

[phee]

fair enough. good luck

[ussi]

I thought I'd chime in because there are a lot of different ideas being thrown around. First off how are you guys even comparing a bottom end motor built to a turbo?? They're apples and oranges. With any of these NA mods including a rebuild of the bottom or top ends of a motor you're not sacrificing any reliability, instead you're adding to its longevity and reliability. If I were to start all over again I'd start by beefing up the motor and tranny and go from there.
Also, as far as the CT s/c kit and it being unreliable where are you getting that info?? The ppl who have had adverse effects from it were NOT running it completely stock (w/ the lbp etc). They were pushing it past one of its limits in every case...which goes back to the engine...the motor itself cannot withstand anything outside of its 'safe' range. I've seen the rods and the pistons rings and i can tell you they are just not made to handle boost. Yes, i know its all about tuning blah blah but guaranteed that if you run a turbo on this car in excess of 8+ psi you're going to start breaking things. The block seems very durable as do the heads, just not any of the internals going there. I don't think anyone is going to disagree that building up the motor will only compliment the turbo or any boost for a fraction of the cost. Just my .

[Silva-type-s]

Originally Posted by ussi

I thought I'd chime in because there are a lot of different ideas being thrown around. First off how are you guys even comparing a bottom end motor built to a turbo?? They're apples and oranges. With any of these NA mods including a rebuild of the bottom or top ends of a motor you're not sacrificing any reliability, instead you're adding to its longevity and reliability. If I were to start all over again I'd start by beefing up the motor and tranny and go from there.
Also, as far as the CT s/c kit and it being unreliable where are you getting that info?? The ppl who have had adverse effects from it were NOT running it completely stock (w/ the lbp etc). They were pushing it past one of its limits in every case...which goes back to the engine...the motor itself cannot withstand anything outside of its 'safe' range. I've seen the rods and the pistons rings and i can tell you they are just not made to handle boost. Yes, i know its all about tuning blah blah but guaranteed that if you run a turbo on this car in excess of 8+ psi you're going to start breaking things. The block seems very durable as do the heads, just not any of the internals going there. I don't think anyone is going to disagree that building up the motor will only compliment the turbo or any boost for a fraction of the cost. Just my .

we're making fruit punch


also ive seen a TL at 12psi get abused and not a thing went wrong. ive seen it at 10psi and Rodney was driving like he want something to break but nothing happened.....

good points though i agree.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by ussi

I thought I'd chime in because there are a lot of different ideas being thrown around. First off how are you guys even comparing a bottom end motor built to a turbo?? They're apples and oranges. With any of these NA mods including a rebuild of the bottom or top ends of a motor you're not sacrificing any reliability, instead you're adding to its longevity and reliability. If I were to start all over again I'd start by beefing up the motor and tranny and go from there.
Also, as far as the CT s/c kit and it being unreliable where are you getting that info?? The ppl who have had adverse effects from it were NOT running it completely stock (w/ the lbp etc). They were pushing it past one of its limits in every case...which goes back to the engine...the motor itself cannot withstand anything outside of its 'safe' range. I've seen the rods and the pistons rings and i can tell you they are just not made to handle boost. Yes, i know its all about tuning blah blah but guaranteed that if you run a turbo on this car in excess of 8+ psi you're going to start breaking things. The block seems very durable as do the heads, just not any of the internals going there. I don't think anyone is going to disagree that building up the motor will only compliment the turbo or any boost for a fraction of the cost. Just my .

I respectfully disagree.

The engine won't blow up at any magical boost level. It will blow at a certain hp/torque/rpm level.

In other words with a stock (no mods) engine and a turbo it may blow at 10psi which may equal 400hp. These are all numbers I'm pulling out of my you know what so don't take it literal. Throw some mods on there where it makes the same 400hp at 7psi and 7psi is the new limit.

The CT kit is not a kit IMO. It's a half assed attempt at bolting a supercharger on and unfortunately gives superchargers and TLs a bad name. The TL is detonation prone in stock form. What do you think happens when you throw boost on top without a way to richen the mix or pull timing? It may not happen instantly but it will let go eventually.

Tuning is the single most important thing you can do for reliability. I've said this over and over and for some reason I keep having to say it. I've blown stuff up in the 12 second range and I've made it live for years with nearly double the hp in the 10 second range because I learned to tune.

I fully agree with you on building the engine for boost or high rpms if going the NA route. Having a good foundation is important. But your bad luck is due to a lack of tuning and detonation, not too much power for the stock bottom end. At 350whp that's properly tuned the J32 should see 200,000 trouble free miles.

[ussi]

Ok, let me put it this way - adding a turbo will NEVER add reliability to an engine but building up the motor will. I don't think there is a downside to squeezing out 30hp/trq for a increased displacement forged bottom for about half the cost of a S/c. I can't agree more that tuning is by far the critical element but I don't think the j32 is as bullet proof as you think. I mean if ppl are blowing gaskets and rings while tinkering with a 4.5psi s/c what do you think will happen when they tinker with a 10psi turbo? A stock j32 is still a 11:1 compression car that is going to ping at the smallest deviation from its stock parameters. Or, if you say: don't tinker with the kit at all, then you still don't have a boost friendly engine.

I haven't said too much about all the tuning i went through to get a 'perfect' reflash and eliminate the ACM but just to give you some insight into what was involved just to run 6.5psi blower wasn't easy. The initial problem is fuel delivery which is corrected by larger injectors, that way you don't lean out (kinda obv). But as we messed with timing/fuel/vtec/ etc the motor kept wanting to ping on the road (not heavy pinging by any means but more of the occasional), while it was totally fine on the dyno. Mind you, this is hondata doing the tuning, which was a back and forth process of 2+ months (1 week with their for tuning/testing and 1 week with me road testing) and back and forth. My A/f was never sooo out of whack and I never leaned out soo bad that i shld have cracked a ring. Is the tuning process at a higher psi with an FI/C going to be better AND more reliable then hondata's? Hmmmmmm I highly doubt it.

FYI i'm not here to talk shit on the turbo kit, cuz it seems like they're doing quality work at taking their time so I give them props, i'm just throwing this out there.

The CT kit is not the greatest by any means and they seem to do a lot of work arounds to create a 'complete' kit ie crushing the fpr instead of actually increasing fuel delivery. It does what its made for and nothing more. It provides 5lbs of boost reliably. Sure there are issues like surging and fuel delivery (which are easily corrected with a FI/C) but I think thats where the limit of the motor lies.
Lower the compression and used some forged parts and provide a perfect tune and you're in business. I found out the hard way that there are too many "and's".

[Opel]

Our bottom half is forged in stock form, except for pistons. 11.0:1 CR doesn't help but it still isn't the end of the world if it wasn't for poor AFR and IGT Control provided from CT.
I think the SC kit mechanically, is bulletproof. But a chain can't be labeled strong when there's a weak link. Ive seen this more than on my own experience, and the kit as a "whole" is far from reliable. I blew 2 motors at stock 4-5 psi boost levels, both the same way, both shattered ring lands, and Im not the only one this happened to.

Aside from poor tuning means, the SC is a blowtorch. Sitting inside the very hot engine bay, almost air tight, heat nowhere to escape, and every time the fans start blowing, everything's just being heat blasted. High IATs entering the SC, and even hotter boost after that. This makes things worse. Along with improper tunning, like IHC says, "a ticking time bomb"

What we meant about a fully build NA J32 being unreliable, is the fact that, all this was based on trying to make big numbers. So, Reving at 10k rpm, big ass cams, 12.5:1-13.0:1 CR etc...in other words an almost near race motor, its not so called reliable.
We were more trying to say that, it wouldn't be streetable, if you wanted big numbers out of a built NA J32. Not that reliability would be lost if simply replaced with better internals. So bottom line, again, your j32 would be more reliable and very much more streetabe if you reached 450 whp via Turbo, than fully build NA.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by ussi

Ok, let me put it this way - adding a turbo will NEVER add reliability to an engine but building up the motor will. I don't think there is a downside to squeezing out 30hp/trq for a increased displacement forged bottom for about half the cost of a S/c. I can't agree more that tuning is by far the critical element but I don't think the j32 is as bullet proof as you think. I mean if ppl are blowing gaskets and rings while tinkering with a 4.5psi s/c what do you think will happen when they tinker with a 10psi turbo?

This is exactly what you're not understanding. When it pings it sees cylinder pressures equivilent to 1,000hp, even more. This is why it breaks parts. 400hp is much easier on parts than 1,000hp. You're not putting enough weight on a good tune.

[Opel]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

This is exactly what you're not understanding. When it pings it sees cylinder pressures equivilent to 1,000hp, even more. This is why it breaks parts. 400hp is much easier on parts than 1,000hp. You're not putting enough weight on a good tune.

and that equals to 66.6 hp per piston/cylinder

[ussi]

Originally Posted by Opel

What we meant about a fully build NA J32 being unreliable, is the fact that, all this was based on trying to make big numbers. So, Reving at 10k rpm, big ass cams, 12.5:1-13.0:1 CR etc...in other words an almost near race motor, its not so called reliable.
We were more trying to say that, it wouldn't be streetable, if you wanted big numbers out of a built NA J32. Not that reliability would be lost if simply replaced with better internals. So bottom line, again, your j32 would be more reliable and very much more streetabe if you reached 450 whp via Turbo, than fully build NA.

I didn't think that was actually going to be a serious option that someone was considering. More effort than its worth

Originally Posted by I hate cars

This is exactly what you're not understanding. When it pings it sees cylinder pressures equivilent to 1,000hp, even more. This is why it breaks parts. 400hp is much easier on parts than 1,000hp. You're not putting enough weight on a good tune.

I still want to see the full capability of the FI/C. Like I said before even tuning the car isn't that easy, so i'm definitely anxiously waiting the final tuning results