October Sales Comparison...

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Shift_Acura Couldnt have said it better myself. The only thing "affordable" in the Acura lineup is a 201 hp FWD sedan. (and it can only be considered affordable since its cheaper than 3 series,C-class,G, A4 and IS) Of course the key thing to take from this is that it is not to say the cars aren't good cars. In many respects, they're the best cars Acura has ever fielded. They are simply priced a few thousand higher than our longtime buyers are expecting. I notice that those that come from the 'higher' brands tend to be more satisfied, leading me to believe that viewed subjectively, they offer a lot for the money. Interestingly, this also makes me think that those who were expecting 'affordable' RWD from the canceled programs would have been in for a rude awakening had the cars been produced. When I see the cost to bring the current AWD TL to market (with its current equipment level), and when I realize the TL benefits from the economics of scale that the Accord brings, I shudder to think how much a unique platform would have cost. Especially if they are only building 50-70K a year.

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[bagbklyn]

I guess Dave Marek is the Chris Bangle of Acura. Hopefully he will have the same fate. It seems like he was obsessed with Acura's grille for a while.This is from 2007
He also had a say in the new pilot and its new grille that the pilot owners disllike so much.
I also believe Acura might be going in the wrong direction for the empty nesters. While competitors are making convertible coupes, Acura comes out with another 4 door crossover. These empty nester have been driving 4 door vehicle and minivans all their life and now they want to kinda relive their younger days. Just like they're downsizing their house, they also want to downsize their vehicle. Acura is kinda dropping the ball here.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by bagbklyn

It seems like he was obsessed with Acura's grille for a while.This is from 2007

Actually most of the design elements on the currnet TSX and TL came from the Sports 4 Concept of 2005

(to everyone and not singling out bagbklyn) This kinda illustrates how little understanding people have of the time-frame needed to bring a car from drawings, to clay, to concept and finally production. (also, although I cannot source this, I have heard that the Sports 4 [and grill] were styled in Japan)

[bagbklyn]

[QUOTE
This kinda illustrates how little understanding people have of the time-frame needed to bring a car from drawings, to clay, to concept and finally production. (also, although I cannot source this, I have heard that the Sports 4 [and grill] were styled in Japan)[/quote]

I don't feel singled out don't worry Colin, I just realized something and it had to have been stated before. I was looking at a car and driver magazine this morning and it seems the TL grille comes above the headlight and that is the main issue with the grille. If the grille looked anything like on this concept I'm sure it would improved the sales some. Eventhough you can't go by polls on another website with vtec in the name with over 2000 votes more then 60% think negatively of the grille. Even with the economy a factor I seriously believe the grille has something to do with sales and hopefully acura has learned

[Colin]

Originally Posted by bagbklyn

Even with the economy a factor I seriously believe the grille has something to do with sales and hopefully acura has learned

I agree for the most part, but I hope that Acura does not cave in to all the whining. Styling is an aesthetic, and as 'art' there is no right or wrong. I do agree that they should clean up some of the elements, but IMO the shield should remain.

[winstrolvtec]

If the grill/style is the weak point on the car then Acura should highlight more of it's strenghts in it's ads and marketing. Throw some money in C&D advertising and ask them to put the 6MT up against the mid level luxury cars. That should help compensate some and in time the grill will just be what it is without so much drama attached to it but at least they are drawing attention to the brand be it good or bad and that is something that they wanted to do with this car. Just like something that is not so great gets hyped up to this imaginary level, so can it get hyped down more than it really should.

Then at MMC if they feel it is a big deal they can still tweak it, to change it early would be admitting fault, which may or may not end up being the case even though it is leaning more in one direction. If changed early people will still view it as the car that "used" to have any ugly grill and that is really not much better.

[Hanga Piko]

Originally Posted by winstrolvtec

If changed early people will still view it as the car that "used" to have any ugly grill and that is really not much better.

Actually Subaru abandoned "the flying vagina" mid model and got away clean.

To be honest ever since I saw the RJ grill I've seen the car in a whole new light and might consider replacing the TSX with one. The worst part is the hassle of ordering, installing and painting an aftermarket accessory. If Acura would do it for me that would be a huge plus.

[Hanga Piko]

Originally Posted by Colin

I agree for the most part, but I hope that Acura does not cave in to all the whining. Styling is an aesthetic, and as 'art' there is no right or wrong. I do agree that they should clean up some of the elements, but IMO the shield should remain.

What do your customers say about it?

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Hanga Piko

What do your customers say about it?

Very hard to say. IMO, if they buy it is a non issue (to them). I guess it's sort of 'self-qualifying'. I honestly think that it's a 'bandwagon' effect on the internet. Much like it's easy to keep griping about front overhangs or other things that are not going to change anytime soon. IMO, 90% didn't know they didn't like large overhangs till someone told them they didn't.

[Hanga Piko]

Originally Posted by Colin

(to everyone and not singling out bagbklyn) This kinda illustrates how little understanding people have of the time-frame needed to bring a car from drawings, to clay, to concept and finally production. (also, although I cannot source this, I have heard that the Sports 4 [and grill] were styled in Japan)

I think it follows the fast/expensive/quality equation.

The 2004 Nissan Quest was getting massacred in sales because it had a bizarre center mounted gauge cluster that scared customers away. At a cost of many millions of dollars, Nissan managed to redo the entire dash area in time for the MMC.

And all anyone is asking is that Acura reshape a single piece of plastic.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Hanga Piko

I think it follows the fast/expensive/cheap equation.

The 2004 Nissan Quest was getting massacred in sales because it had a bizarre center mounted gauge cluster that scared customers away. At a cost of many millions of dollars, Nissan managed to redo the entire dash area in time for the MMC.

And all anyone is asking is that Acura reshape a single piece of plastic.

It's hard to argue that causality. Maybe the Quest got massacered because the Sienna and Odyssey were better products? Much like the agreeable looks of the Altima didn't help it in the run against Camry and Accord. I would argue that the reason the Quest got creamed was because it's a Nissan (and not a Honda or Toyota).

Edit to add, and the 'single peice of plastic" is flanked by two pieces of sheetmetal that would need to be changed. This would mean new presses and dies for that part too.

[Hanga Piko]

Originally Posted by Colin

It's hard to argue that causality. Maybe the Quest got massacered because the Sienna and Odyssey were better products? Much like the agreeable looks of the Altima didn't help it in the run against Camry and Accord. I would argue that the reason the Quest got creamed was because it's a Nissan and not a Honda or Toyota.

No they changed the dash area at a very high cost in direct response to negative customer feedback. True story.

Regarding the grill bandwagon thing, it's been common thought since the 90's that lots of Chrome is gaudy, and matte silver is no exception. I think Acura really bucked common styling wisdom and has nobody to blame but itself.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Hanga Piko

No they changed the dash area at a very high cost in direct response to negative customer feedback. True story.

Regarding the grill bandwagon thing, it's been common thought since the 90's that lots of Chrome is gaudy, and matte silver is no exception. I think Acura really bucked common styling wisdom and has nobody to blame but itself.

Wait, did I say they didn't change it? Did I say that it wasn't at high cost? And did I say that it wasn't in response to negative feedback? No.

All I was saying was that the style of the dash wasn't the reason it sold poorly compared to others in the segment. IOW, I'm just saying that the Sienna and Odyssey are the standard bearers in the segment. And IMO, it has everything to do with the quality of the product and their overall value (including resale) and NOT the style of the Quest dash.

I also disagree on chrome. I see chrome as making a huge comeback since the days of blacked out trim. Everyone is putting chrome back on cars, from rims, to window trim etc. I've been around cars long enough to see chrome change to 'black chrome' and now back again. I see flashy "faces" everywhere, from Mazda 3s to Audi/VW to Infiniti.

Now, if you're asking me if I agree with this huge grill trend, I have my reservations. But lets be realistic here, 'in your face' grills are in vogue now, and Acura is not alone in this regard. Acura is not 'behind' the trend, they are in step with it.

[Hanga Piko]

Neither the new Mazdas nor the new Audi grills feature much chrome other than the emblem and thin outline. I just looked. In fact the new Mazda 3's face is notable for it's lack of chrome, and very large emphasis on the color black. Are we looking at the same car?

If chrome grills are in vogue then why does the widely loved RJ grill feature much less rather than more? Who is chrome in vogue with exactly? Why are some dealerships paint matching the grills of some unsold TLs?

I don't mean to be a contrarian, but I can't find evidence to back up what you're saying.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Hanga Piko

Neither the new Mazdas nor the new Audi grills feature much chrome other than the emblem and thin outline. I just looked. In fact the new Mazda 3's face is notable for it's lack of chrome, and very large emphasis on the color black. Are we looking at the same car?

If chrome grills are in vogue then why does the widely loved RJ grill feature much less rather than more? Who is chrome in vogue with exactly? Why are some dealerships paint matching the grills of some unsold TLs?

I wasn't citing the Mazda 3 as an example of chrome, but rather as a trend showing aggressive 'in your face' grills. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Of course some VW's do have that large chrome strip in the middle of the grill. And who doesn't use chrome in their grill? Mercedes, Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti all use chrome in the grill, and typically around the windows.







As for the RJ grill. No offense to him, but it is far from "widely" known, so I don't see it as widely loved. The bottom line is if you don't like the grill on new Acura's, you don't like it. It is a matter of style and/or taste and no logical argument can 'change' your mind (nor am I trying to).

I'm only pointing out that your focus is too narrow. That you may be drawing conclusions from 'facts' (like the Quest sales vs. design argument) where there is no evidence of causality and in fact, may even be contradictory (eg. did the restyled dash result in more sales?).

Your messages are peppered with things like "widely loved" or "common thought" when in all likelyhood, they are not. It is your opinion you are supporting and that is fine but let's not speak for the masses.

[Hanga Piko]

ya got me, that's a lot of chrome.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Hanga Piko

ya got me, that's a lot of chrome.

LOL, it's not about winning or losing. It's just about expressing ourselves clearly. And I didn't do a good job myself with the Mazda 3 example

[GrigioTL]

Originally Posted by Colin

I wasn't citing the Mazda 3 as an example of chrome, but rather as a trend showing aggressive 'in your face' grills. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Of course some VW's do have that large chrome strip in the middle of the grill. And who doesn't use chrome in their grill? Mercedes, Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti all use chrome in the grill, and typically around the windows.







As for the RJ grill. No offense to him, but it is far from "widely" known, so I don't see it as widely loved. The bottom line is if you don't like the grill on new Acura's, you don't like it. It is a matter of style and/or taste and no logical argument can 'change' your mind (nor am I trying to).

I'm only pointing out that your focus is too narrow. That you may be drawing conclusions from 'facts' (like the Quest sales vs. design argument) where there is no evidence of causality and in fact, may even be contradictory (eg. did the restyled dash result in more sales?).

Your messages are peppered with things like "widely loved" or "common thought" when in all likelyhood, they are not. It is your opinion you are supporting and that is fine but let's not speak for the masses.

Colin,

Just from reading your posts, it sounds to me that you sell Acuras so it is understanble where you are coming from -which is OK. I would agree that styling is a personal preference but it is hard to ignore that Acura's new grille is distasteful to many people. I do not think the responses to the grille are the result of an internet "bandwagon".

Initially, I was taken aback when I first saw the grille on the refreshed 2009 RL. However, it took me a while to get used to the grille. But the fact is that not every potential buyer will give Acura a second chance like I did when I got out of my Lexus IS 350 for a TL SH-AWD Tech.

I had owned a TL before my current one so that experience led me to purchase another one even after my reservations with the current design of the grille. Consumers just have too many options in this crowded luxury market that a struggling brand like Acura can't afford to take such a risk.

Acura has a number of issues to address. The mere fact that Acuras are generally not considered on par with either Lexus or Infiniti is a major problem. They have been promising game changing products for years but have yet to deliver anything that would reverse this trend of declining sales.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by GrigioTL

Colin,

Just from reading your posts, it sounds to me that you sell Acuras so it is understanble where you are coming from -which is OK. I would agree that styling is a personal preference but it is hard to ignore that Acura's new grille is distasteful to many people. I do not think the responses to the grille are the result of an internet "bandwagon".

It's not exactly a secret. When this board was sponsored by DCH Acura, they forbade anyone from putting the store you worked at in your signature. Not sure if this still the case, but it doesn't really matter. I've been on this board a long time and selling Acura's for even longer. I've seen good times and bad times. Far too many 20 somethings here have not taken the time to gain a broader perspective of the brand and where it has been.

As for TL sales, I'll quote myself from another thread:

Originally Posted by Colin

I don't believe the looks have 'fueled' sales, but I think the bigger culprits are the wide pricing scheme, the loss of (some) perceived value in the base TL and the current equipment levels (and engine) in a loaded EX-L Navi Accord.

The current base TL is somehow more 'debasing' than before, has no ELS audio, and a higher starting price. The Tech package is a much bigger price jump than the earlier generation Navi option further widening the gap. It should be noted that judging from what is posted here, the TRANSACTION prices are similar, but the MSRP is higher, ant this alone might be keeping some 'non-hagglers' out of the showrooms.

The way I see it, a V6 TSX nibbles away ~300 sales a month. An Accord with a 3.5 V-6 and Navi nibbles away another ~500 units. The looks take away a little more, and finally a slow economy and very low production take still more. It's not hard to see how TL sales are off by 25%.