Jae Cross

Have an 03 TL.. bought it last year.. began having hesitant issues recently and I pulled the plugs that were NGK PZFR5F-11 and they were cooked. The Autozone i went to was out of stock on the NGKs i wanted so I just threw some Bosch Dbl Plats in there.. Runs alot better (so far) are they good? or should I prepare to pull those plugs in about a year? lol

Skirmich

In my experience... Bosch plugs and Hondas does not get along....
When I tried some Bosch plugs (Iridium x4 tips) the car gave slightly better fuel economy but at the expense of lower get go (Acceleration). Since MPGs were the least of my worries I swapped them out for the correct NGK Iridium IX plugs and the difference was literally night and day, NGKs outperformed the Bosch Plugs...

If you are not concerned about full WOT Acceleration and really want some MPGs upgrade then I say keep them until they last, If you want the full performance of your engine swap them out for the correct NGK plugs.. Its not like the NGKs do not give MPGs, I am getting 31mpg hwy and 24 in the city sooooo... There is really no point in my book to use incorrect Bosch plugs on a Honda Engine.

Crashmaster

A spark plug is not a real complicated device. It transfers electricity from the spark plug wire and causes a spark to ignite the fuel. In the past people would claim only use Autolite plugs in Fords, Champion Plugs in Chryslers, AC Delco plugs in General Motors, etc. etc. etc. Would your engine really run poorly if you put an AC Delco plug into a Chrysler? Of course not. Has anyone every came out scientifically and explained why you can’t put an AC Delco plug into a Chrysler?Today’s technology, the Spark Plug manufacturers do not really make a bad spark plug or make plugs for just one specific brand of vehicles. I see all different brand spark plugs in all different brand vehicles. Due mainly to the efficiency of the engine, the different brand spark plugs last just as long (if not longer) than the OEM spark plugs. Why shouldn’t they? They are just spark plugs.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Having owned four Chrysler minivans and having spent over a decade on a forum dedicated to those vans, I can tell you there are literally hundreds of anecdotal reports which indicate Bosch plugs in the 3.3 and the 3.8 liter mills do okay initially but typically within 20,000 miles are toast. I do not recall anybody trying any AC Delco plugs, however there are lots of reports which indicate the Autolite double platinums work well. On that last point, I bought a used 1999 Town & Country as a team vehicle for a 200+ mile running relay (Ragnar Reach the Beach) a few years ago and it had Autolites in place of the OEM Champions (which I always got well over 100,000 miles out of); per the service records on the van, the Autolites had about 95,000 miles on them when I replaced them; they weren't too far 'round the bend, but didn't look as good as the Champions I've pulled, even with 120,000+ miles on them.

broly

since you already bought them, let us know how it goes!

my plugs are overdue for a change as i broach the 206000km barrier, and i just ordered the same laser platinums that come with the car (OEM).

should last me a long time. only notice their age occasionally, but definitely due for a change.

Crashmaster

Over 100,000 miles, how many tanks of gasoline were put in your vehicle stale? How much gas additives were added? How many times was cheap oil or oil additives added to the engine? How much teenage driving (hot rodding) happened? How much city as compared to highway driving? How much towing or heavy loads did you pull? All and more of the above can reduce the life of a spark plug. Any brand of spark plug. And the bottom line is: We are going to blame this all on a different brand of spark plug? Really!?

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

You missed the point, Bosch plugs in those engines weren't even good for 20,000 miles when the OEM Champion plugs would go well over 100,000 miles.

01acls

Let's just stick to the facts. There are many documented 2g Acura TL and CL vehicles that have 200,000+ miles on their odometer. Overwhelming amount of them uses OEM plugs with little to no issues. This is proof that OEM plugs are doing the job.

Show me your tangible proof that the Bosch plugs can achieve these numbers in terms of useage per some vehicles? Then you have a basis to present your hypothesis. Otherwise it's pure speculation. Speculation doesn't make it true.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

To whom are you responding?

01acls

To anyone who thinks Bosch plugs are just as good as OEM plugs in a 2g TL/CL. Show something to support your reasoning other than the parts guy saying it's comparable per the parts catalog?

Here is something else to consider, Japanese automobiles are more reliable than German automobiles. Therefore, Japanese parts are more reliable than German parts. It's that simple based on well documented facts.

Crashmaster

Your proof is hearsay at best. You have no scientific proof of a controlled study with any spark plug brand. What you have failed to prove is that your brand of spark plug is any different than another. If there is really no difference (except for name) between spark plug A and spark plug B, then you can’t say that one is better than another. Check out the Bosch or NGK engineering reports on their web site. A spark plug is a spark plug. There is not enough difference between any spark plug to make claims as you have. You might have well also stated that a K&N air filter will give you 15 more horsepower too. It won't.

01acls

Be careful what you wish for. The only plug to fail during the test.

Huge spark plugs test by bmwservice *pic heavy* - Hyundai Genesis Forum

Crashmaster

Not quite sure where you found an old Russian email (100 Rubles currently equals $1.68, so this must have been many many years ago). So a person in Russia installed these spark plugs in some vehicle and he claims that the spark plugs failed. Wow, could it have been leaking oil rings? Bad valves? Cylinder leakage? Or any number of other things? What vehicle was it installed in? Who installed them? What was the state of the engine? Bosch happens to have a very good warranty on their spark plugs being: Bosch Spark Plug GuaranteeRobert Bosch LLC guarantees your satisfaction or the improved performance in your vehicle when you use Bosch Spark Plugs. If you are not satisfied or do not experience quicker starts, smoother acceleration and improved fuel efficiency, return the plugs with your dated sales receipt and Bosch will refund the purchase price of the spark plugs. These guarantees apply to properly tuned vehicles and extend through the manufacturer's recommended spark plug change interval as indicated in the owner's manual. For maximum performance and lowered emissions, do not exceed the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations. These guarantees do not extend to damages due to misuse, accident, abuse, neglect, improper installation or application. These guarantees are limited solely to refund of the cost of spark plugs and do not include the cost of labor for removal or installation.Bosch plugs are used in winning race cars around the world in numerous race circuits. Many race car teams use Bosch plugs successfully in all types of engines. Bosch happens to be the number #1 plug used in auto racing. Why would race teams around the world use a plug that some Russian guy had problems with? Wouldn’t these race teams be afraid of putting such trash plugs into their $100,000 engines (some more, some less)? Perhaps I’ll send them this Russian email and that will convince them to use a different type plug. The better question is: Would these race teams have still won if they had used Autolite, NGK, AC Delco or some other brand plug? The answer is: Almost certainly, yes. A plug is a plug.

http://ua.bosch-automotive.com/en/news_and_extras/newsroom/spark_plugs_in_mortorsport/spark_plugs_in_mortorsport_1

Any brand spark plug can fail when installed in a malfunctioning engine. Even in Russia.

01acls

Your proof is hearsay at best. You have no scientific proof of a controlled study with any spark plug brand.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

True, anecdotal evidence is simply hearsay, however, at some point enough anecdotal/hearsay evidence starts encroaching into the realm of empirical evidence.

For those who advocate for Bosch spark plugs, check any automotive forum you wish, regardless of whether said forum is about Asian, American, European, or even more specifically German cars; regardless of which forum you choose, Bosch plugs will be almost universally reported as having a very high early failure rate.

01acls

"Bosch plugs are used in winning race cars around the world in numerous race circuits. Many race car teams use Bosch plugs successfully in all types of engines. Bosch happens to be the number #1 plug used in auto racing."

Crashmaster,

Why would you compare a race car spark plug to a street car spark plug? A race car only runs for hours at a time as compare to a street car which uses the same spark plug for 10 to 15 years.

"Your proof is hearsay at best. You have no scientific proof of a controlled study with any spark plug brand."

Skirmich

Crashmaster
Is just simple man, Have you tried BOSCH Plugs on a Honda Engine? Your current Acura has BOSCH Plugs in it?
IF NOT then why you don´t try it and Experience first hand the horror so it stops being just Hearsay?

It is hard to explain why a simple thing as a Spark Plug does not truly work universally well on every single engine but its true for Honda Engines, Bosch and Honda Engines do not work well together.. Now am I going to waste my time trying to find the reason why? Nope.. Honda Engines use: DENSO and Preferably NGK Plugs this is a well known FACT since the dark ages on any Honda & Acura communities (Forums, Clubs, etc). Main reason being because users on those communities tried Bosch plugs on their engines with Poor Results including me.

But hey, If you still want to advocate for Bosch that is all fine and dandy! but you are fighting against the tide man... No one here in this forum will recommend Bosch Plugs over NGK its just not going to happen, We know first hand that Bosch Plugs make our Engines run LIKE CRAP.

Crashmaster

Bosch spends millions on their R&D (Research and Development). When race teams, which consists of automotive engineers decide on what spark plug to use, they are not going to choose a plug with a company that can’t even make a consumer plug. Race car application requires extensive research, design and engineering to handle multiple turbocharger, superchargers, very high compression engines, nitrous fuel, and more. These race teams all over the world only want the very best spark plug in their engine. They would never pick a plug that has rumors of failing due to ??????. What is it again that you believe fails on a Bosch spark plug?As for the consumer line of plugs, all Bosch plugs meet or exceed warranty requirements of all vehicle and engine manufacturers. Racing, as it has for 100 years, provides a great developmental impetus and test bed for spark plug durability and performance, and what is learned at Indy or Darlington, or Le Mans helps improve the spark plugs installed in today’s cars or trucks. From the first Indy 500 won by Ray Harroun’s Marmon Wasp to the last 17 Indy 500 winners, and many in between, each have used Bosch spark plugs. Many premium passenger car spark plugs use multiple ground electrodes and precious metals, such as platinum, which are a direct result of their development and testing in long distance racing.I would certainly want to use what race teams all over the world choose as their preferred spark plug instead of hearsay from internet forums of people mis-installing Bosch plugs into faulty engines. Pretty much the only difference between race and consumer plugs is that race plugs run colder.

When the time is right, I would have no hesitation in installing Bosch plugs in my TLX.

I wonder if the 100th anniversary of the Indy 500 where Dan Wheldon won driving a Bosch spark plug equipped Honda, why someone didn't tell him that Honda and Bosch don't go together? That is just one example of many Hondas which race with Bosch plugs.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Wow, seriously defensive; why are you so invested in Bosch plugs?

For my self, I will never even consider a Bosch plug unless and until it is the OEM Plug of choice for the engine I'm working on at that moment.

thoiboi

You can use whatever you want. But don't preach a tried and true method for many many other people. Not everyone on this forum drives Le Mans cars.. what an idiotic comparison...

Skirmich

Funny how is not even a given, considering your thoughts on Bosch Plugs.
Until then you have no experience and thus your opinion and hearsay means very little to us that do have experience with them.

Jae Cross

Thanks for all the feedback i didnt mean for the arguments to happen but but based on THIS response since its the most accurate situation happening to my car at the moment im going to go based on this.. dont really care about mpg i just want good performance so the "proper" spark plug would be the NGK iridium vs laser platinum? is there a major difference? new to doing things myself so I just dont wanna ruin my cylinders on accident running incorrect plugs

Skirmich

"Laser Platinums" are the "OEM" plug back when Acura decided to ditch Iridium in the 2G TL (1st gen TL was Iridium, 3rd Gen TL was Iridium again).. So we use the Iridium IX as the "Affordable" replacement... The correct OEM Plugs today will be the "Laser Iridiums" but at 13 bucks each plug they aren´t precisely affordable and the main difference between the Laser series and normal Iridium IX is that the Lasers are supposedly to last +100K Miles.. The Iridium IX might not last as long but they are cheaper and work like a charm in the TL.

I use the Iridium IX on my TLS and the Laser Iridiums in my MDX.

comet24

What a race team uses as a plug has little to do with what will work on a daily driver car. How often do you change your plugs? How often do you think a race team changes theirs? Your engine running the same fuel, same compression, same running temp of the engine, same ignition, timing. Of course not. Race plugs are made to give very specific results same as OEM plugs. Longevity isn't much of an issue on race plugs but it is on daily driver cars.

There are some very experienced people here who have tried and seen the results of different things on these and other Honda/Acura cars. There is a reason almost everyone is recommending NGK plugs.

Crashmaster

Let’s assume for a moment you are correct and that Bosch plugs fail in only consumer Honda engines.

A spark plug can fail in many ways such as install failure

Plug too lose

Plug too tight

Gap too wide

Gap too narrow

Cross thread during install

Insulator cracked during installI think it is fair to say that install fail is not what you are speaking about.Could it be a true defective plug from the factory plug? Personally, in the thousands of plugs I’ve installed, I’ve never once seen or even heard about a truly defective plug right out of the box. It certainly could happen, but again, I don’t think this is what you guys are speaking about.

Could the plug failure happed due to an engine problem?

Overheating damage can wear the electrode quickerPre-ignition from in improperly timed engine can also wear the electrodeOil fouled – an engine with bad rings or too much cylinder leakage, etc. Gas fouled – a too high air fuel ratio can gas foul plugsMisfire – Ignition wires, coil, distributor cap and other ignition parts can weaken the sparkDeposits – Adding some gas and oil additives can leave deposits on the spark plugThis doesn’t sound like what you guys are speaking about.

Incorrect Cross-Reference – Is it possible that the cross reference from a Honda spark plug to a Bosch spark plug is incorrect? I think someone would have found this problem before, not to mention Bosch could be held liable, so I don’t think this is the problem.Thinking about this, I just couldn’t think of ANY valid reason why a Bosch spark plug would fail in a Honda engine. With all the failed Honda engines due to running Bosch plugs would you not think that someone would have documented it? Spark plugs are removed all the time to determine the health of an engine? Has nobody every pulled a Bosch plug perhaps every 5,000 miles out of a Honda to show a pattern of wear or deterioration? A spark plug can be tested for spark and can also be tested by using a multi meter. Where are the youtube videos of someone showing a Bosch plug from a Honda that failed?I guess my bigger question is: What is the specific differences between an NGK and a Bosch plug. Perhaps the difference is what you feel makes an NGK work in a Honda and not a Bosch?And yes, I’ve heard the rumor for many years that you don’t use Bosch in Honda engines and never found a source for it. I’ve also heard that running a Fram filter can destroy your engine and K&N air filters will give you 15 more horsepower.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

The point some, myself included, are trying to make is there are many engines which do not play nice with Bosch plugs, regardless of who built the engine.

Crashmaster

If you can't tell me why, then it becomes a myth and not real. I look up play nice in my service manual and can't find anything.

Crashmaster

Jae - as long as we can be civil and discuss spark plugs intelligently there really is no argument. I didn't come here looking for a fight, but I did come here wanting to educate myself on why people believe Bosch plugs can't be used in a Honda. Saying they don't last, or don't do well, or don't play nice are not educated terms. I can't go to court and testify that an engine failed due because the Bosch spark plugs don't play nice with Honda engines. I'm looking for why.

When discussing filters, say perhaps a Fram compared to a Mobil 1, you can actually dissect the filter and compare the micron ratings and other specifications and make rationale comparisons. Heck, you can even send them out for laboratory testing and get back pages of scientific data.A spark plug though is different. There is just so little to go wrong, and such minute differences (if any at all) from one brand to another, I find it interesting that people will condemn a spark plug brand without a valid specific reason.

Crashmaster

I would not hesitate to install Bosch plugs in my 3.5 TLX. Currently my 2 year old TLX has 4,500 miles. I don't drive it much. Even if I did install Bosch plugs as you suggest, it would take me about 6 or 7 years to get the required 20,000 miles on my vehicle. By then, this thread will be long gone. And thats assuming you are correct that they would fail around the 20,000 mile mark. I don't beleive they would.

I'm more interested in why Bosch plugs don't work in Honda engines.

I'm sure I could find a Bosch engineer who would not mind offering his knowledge, but I'm not sure how he would deal with comments like, they don't play nice together. Give me something to work with.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I moderate a website for Honda Accords as well as Chrysler Minivans; in both cases there are literally hundreds of reports of folks experiencing misfires and other OBD-II codes being thrown within 20,000 miles of a new set of Bosch plugs being put in the engine. Replacing the plugs with the OEM NGK and Champion plugs (respectively) resolved the issue in literally every case. Anecdotal I know, but at some point the burden of ignoring literally hundreds of anecdotal reports becomes very difficult.

Are the Bosch plugs of exceedingly poor quality? Don't know. Do the cross reference charts specify the wrong Bosch plug? Don't know. Do Bosch plugs run either hotter or colder than their supposed NGK or Champion counterpart? Don't know that either. The fact remains, using Bosch plugs in pretty much any engine where they are not considered the OEM part, will often lead to engine issues.

Crashmaster

I want to thank everyone for their input. I really do appreciate it. I'm trying to find out WHY and need something specific. I'm just not finding the answer I was looking for.

Nevertheless, as some point this becomes a stalemate.

Again, thank you all for your input.

Jae Cross

I respect everyones opinion thats why im here to get input and YOUR opinion (very respectively) has been apart of my argument about Bosch for years however I've ran Bosch products on my previously owned Ford Edge and never had any issues everything ran great for it. However I installed them 2 weeks ago in my Acura but in my Acura its just not the same bro.. and its hard to explain.. the Acura runs good on them but is a bit sluggish due to the fact I know the power its capable of having before the older plugs went bad.. i guess the best way i can explain it.. its literally like the same feeling of accelerating on a cvt transmission .. it runs but its not good enough.. instead of being able to pull off the line like the beast that it is lol

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I had a 1995 Passat GLX with the venerable VR6 motor; when plug replacement time came around I went to my local parts store and bought a new set of plugs; I just assumed they'd sell me the OEM plugs and never questioned it when I opened the bag and saw Bosch plugs in it. When I pulled the first factory plug out I became worried; the NGK plug which the factory put in had a very different electrode arrangement, in fact, I was worried enough to call the parts store and they checked, double checked, and assured me the plugs they sold me should work in the VR6. In the Bosch plugs went, and out for a test drive I went; the car ran like crap. The next day into the engine went a set of new NGK plugs and into the trash went the virtually new Bosch plugs.

JoJoB3

Just dealt with our '02 MDX with misfire issues, P1399 (and varied cyls misfires). Cleaned EGR valve and ports for good measure but all that looked good. Latest paperwork shows the last tuneup items done, it listed NGK Iridiums but when I went to check a spark for a read I found they're all Bosch dbl platinums. I was suspecting issues with the injectors but tried first a swap in of the Denso PKJ16CR-L11 Double Platinum and tested. No more misfire issues, no codes yet since.

This provides little if any specific concrete evidence other than immediate resolve upon changeout, but I suspect one standout possibility might be ceramics/insulation with these particular Bosch (platinum/iridium). The tracking seen at the ceramic base was quite heavy for what might be 13k miles max for three of the six plugs.

Only been 3+4 weeks but so far so good.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Over the years I've had cars made in the U.S., cars made in Germany, and cars made in Japan; other than the few U.S. cars which always seemed to run best with Champion plugs, every other car I've had since, geez, the late 1970s, has run best with NGKs while not a single one of them ran well with Bosch plugs (and this includes the American cars which ran well with Champions). I'm not sure what Bosch does to their plugs and O2 sensors to make them so non-functional, but I tell folks to avoid them like the plague.

frankjnjr

IMO: Why anyone, would deter, from running anything, but the Manufacturer recommended plug, makes no sense to me! Unless, an engine has been modified, in some way, in which to require an alternative burn style, perhaps. Common sense would dictate, it's most likely best, to stick with OEM, in a stock, OEM style engine. For Special applications, maybe, a higher, or lower heat range plug, could provide improved performance, and or economy,, but in general, an OEM recommended plug, should provide a combination, of the best, and most economical performance, available!

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Simple answer; advertising leads many to believe products like the SuperFlame Double Tip Unobtanium spark plugs will give them huge gains in both power and economy.

frankjnjr

Hey horseshoez, I'd like to try a set, of those SuperFlame, Double Tip, Unobtaniums, just for comparison. Do you know who sells them?

Iggy

I have my daughter's old Easy Bake oven. Maybe I could make up a couple batches and we could setup a group buy

frankjnjr

I'm in!