NEED TO KNOW - Mazdaspeed 3 vs Acura TL

[Rugel]

Please, Mazda still blows!! Whether the MS3 can beat TL or not you can`t compare the overall quality of the TL....you are nothing but a troll! 8P

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[Dave_B]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

It looks like you're trying to pick a fight now.

If 5th is the 1:1 gear then that's the one you should be dynoing in. You know what I meant when I said what I said but you're trying to find something to disagree with.

The power cut you're referring to is closing the throttle for a split second on the shifts. This is not what the Mazda guy is referring to. He's saying overall power is reduced in lower gears for the duration of the gear. This is not true.

Again it seems like you're trying to find a way to disagree with me. Many if not most cars cut power on shifts including the TL. This is not what was in question.

The dynojet can vary load. We had a hard time getting my father's 800+rwhp turbo car to spool the turbo until we loaded it down a lot more. It's true the dynojet can and will be off by a car with a high stall convertor but that's partially because torque is measured and hp is calculated. It will be off the most when your on the convertor. To reinforce this point I dynoed barely over 250rwhp before and ran 11.20 in a 3,400lb car. Doesn't really add up.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I simply don't agree. You said no one dynos in 5th. I simply said I know of cars that do dyno in 5th. Secondly, I disagree with your statement that dynoing in a different gear will results in significantly different numbers. Again, it's not true.

You cannot vary the load on a Dynojet. It's not a brake dyno like a Mustang dyno or Dynapack. A Dynojet is simply a weighted drum. The only brake on it is to slow the drum down after the run. Brake dynos are far better at tuning as they can create load and simulate real world driving situations.

Your GN's screwed up dyno simply looks like operator error. I've witnessed numerous Dynojet runs where the numbers were wildly off, especially if the pickup was attached to the wrong wire/coil or the signal was just weak.

As for the MS3 and reduced power in lower gears, Mazda does indeed refer to it as torque management. And yes, power is reduced in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears. The ratio of reduction is slightly less for each successive gear, but it is very true that 100% of the power is not delivered until 4th gear. No lie.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by Dave_B

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I simply don't agree. You said no one dynos in 5th. I simply said I know of cars that do dyno in 5th. Secondly, I disagree with your statement that dynoing in a different gear will results in significantly different numbers. Again, it's not true.

You cannot vary the load on a Dynojet. It's not a brake dyno like a Mustang dyno or Dynapack. A Dynojet is simply a weighted drum. The only brake on it is to slow the drum down after the run. Brake dynos are far better at tuning as they can create load and simulate real world driving situations.

Your GN's screwed up dyno simply looks like operator error. I've witnessed numerous Dynojet runs where the numbers were wildly off, especially if the pickup was attached to the wrong wire/coil or the signal was just weak.

As for the MS3 and reduced power in lower gears, Mazda does indeed refer to it as torque management. And yes, power is reduced in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears. The ratio of reduction is slightly less for each successive gear, but it is very true that 100% of the power is not delivered until 4th gear. No lie.

I watched as the dyno did not have enough load to get the turbo to spool. I watched as the operator increased it with some sort of pneumatic button.

The MS3 does not have any significant power reduction in 3rd gear. The fact that it has some in the first 3 gears shows it has a weak drivetrain not up to the task of putting power down. I guess that's why it's the choice or roll race ricers. Even so, it runs a low 14 1/4 with a very average trap speed so all this dyno talk and power cut stuff is BS. Who cares, it's a slow econobox.

Dynoing in a different gear than the closest to a 1:1 ratio does effect numbers, sometimes significantly. You can say it's not true all you want but I've seen it with my own eyes. Your point about dynoing in 5th was nothing more than an attempt to prove me wrong. If 5th or 10th gear for that matter is a 1:1 then that's the gear you should be dynoing in. However, most cars have 3rd as their 1:1 and you know it and you know what my point was.

I used to think you had an open mind but it seems you will disagree to the end with anyone who owns a TL.

[phee]

i put down waaaayy less power in my 3rd gear dyno pull than my 4th gear dyno pull.

ill soon be going back for a 5th gear dyno because it is in fact the closest to 1:1.

third gen tl's must dyno in fourth because 5th has a rev limiter.

my car, does not.

[SatinSilverAV6]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

Which model was that? My friend has a Brabus T-12 CL65 that is rated at 704hp and well over 800lbs of torque. Those are flywheel, not rwhp numbers though. The only downfall is it's weight. It felt like a mid 11 second car when it should've been deep in the 10s.

We took a bone stock CL600 to the track with the dealer tags still on it and it went 12.9@110. Only got the one pass but should've been able to get at least a 12.70 out of it with a few more practice runs.

I agree, the second gear start is selectable by the driver but not the default setting. Starting in second all the time builds up heat in the transmission.

He drives a 2003 SL55 AMG with LOTS of work done. He has never ran it through the 1/4 mile though. He would easily run 11's I would imagine.

Thats a quick time for the CL600!

[mazdaspeed3God]

For those who claim that MS3 first 3 gears does not cut power, read these dyno graphs.

note: This is based on 2007 (1st gen) Mazdaspeed 3

1st gear


2nd gear


3rd gear



All three gears have power cut, 1st being the worst, 2nd after that, and 3rd also has considerable amount of power reduction. In 4th gear hp is increased to about 231 whp & 269 wtq in DynoJet Research. 5th gear on Mustang dyno showed 271 wtq. Granted, they are front different dynos and ran in different times and weather conditions but you can get the idea that both 4th and 5th gear starts to show some serious power. TL's has no power reduction if you disable Traction Control in any gears. MS3's first two gears have nearly 50% power cut, 3rd gear is a lot better but still has some cut. Starting 4th gear that's where this car will give you some major damage. Even with those power cut the MS3 doesn't perform as bad in the 0-60's because it still gives you enough *kick* due to fairly aggressive tuning and short gears.

MS3 will start to take over the TL on 3rd gear, and will eat it alive on 4th, and on.

Originally Posted by Rugel

Please, Mazda still blows!! Whether the MS3 can beat TL or not you can`t compare the overall quality of the TL....you are nothing but a troll! 8P

The interior quality of the 2010 MS3 feels better than that of the 3rd gen TL. 3rd gen TL felt like crap when I test drove it. TL maybe luxury but its build quality, fit/finish did not impress me at all. I think 2010 MS3 is better in that department too.

[mazdaspeed3God]

Therefore Mazdaspeed 3 wins. It's plain better car in terms of roll speed racing and road course track racing. It will tear you apart. In road course racing you don't make stops, there's no Stop-and-Go Traffic. Oh yes, G35 6MT will eat you alive too... on roll racing. I actually don't even waste my gas on an automatic TL. Those cars are slow.

[mazdaspeed3God]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

I watched as the dyno did not have enough load to get the turbo to spool. I watched as the operator increased it with some sort of pneumatic button.

The MS3 does not have any significant power reduction in 3rd gear. The fact that it has some in the first 3 gears shows it has a weak drivetrain not up to the task of putting power down. I guess that's why it's the choice or roll race ricers. Even so, it runs a low 14 1/4 with a very average trap speed so all this dyno talk and power cut stuff is BS. Who cares, it's a slow econobox.

Dynoing in a different gear than the closest to a 1:1 ratio does effect numbers, sometimes significantly. You can say it's not true all you want but I've seen it with my own eyes. Your point about dynoing in 5th was nothing more than an attempt to prove me wrong. If 5th or 10th gear for that matter is a 1:1 then that's the gear you should be dynoing in. However, most cars have 3rd as their 1:1 and you know it and you know what my point was.

I used to think you had an open mind but it seems you will disagree to the end with anyone who owns a TL.

DaveB knows a lot more than you. He is experienced a ton.. If I were you I would listen to him.

[ineedmyfixofacura]

10' MS3 has one ugly ass front end. Kind of like the 4th gen TL lol. Idk I guess it's up to the person buying the car, but if it were me... I'd take an 08' TL-S with 30k miles, over a 2010 MS3 with 3k miles.

[Sonnick]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed3God

Therefore Mazdaspeed 3 wins. It's plain better car in terms of roll speed racing and road course track racing. It will tear you apart. In road course racing you don't make stops, there's no Stop-and-Go Traffic. Oh yes, G35 6MT will eat you alive too... on roll racing. I actually don't even waste my gas on an automatic TL. Those cars are slow.

6MT G35s trap around 100-101. Therefore, they will NOT eat any 6MT alive. I guess you're gonna come up and say they cut power in the G35 too?

Stock the G35 puts down what, 235whp? Besides the revup series, no 6MT is gonna eat me alive at all, or even be close. We're talking basic mods of course. Stock revup would be a good run, or modded 6MT before revup (04-05?). Other than that, no /discussion.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed3God

DaveB knows a lot more than you. He is experienced a ton.. If I were you I would listen to him.

You don't know enough to know who knows more little boy. You don't know the first thing about me or what I've done. You drive a shitbox 14 second eco car. Pick fights with people in your own class and know when you're beaten. Here's a way to look at it, right about the time you're hitting the 1/8 mark I've just crossed the finish line. Looking at the stats my car accelerates harder from a 120mph roll than yours will from a dead stop. Again, know your place and leave the big boys alone.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed3God

For those who claim that MS3 first 3 gears does not cut power, read these dyno graphs.

note: This is based on 2007 (1st gen) Mazdaspeed 3

1st gear


2nd gear


3rd gear



All three gears have power cut, 1st being the worst, 2nd after that, and 3rd also has considerable amount of power reduction. In 4th gear hp is increased to about 231 whp & 269 wtq in DynoJet Research. 5th gear on Mustang dyno showed 271 wtq. Granted, they are front different dynos and ran in different times and weather conditions but you can get the idea that both 4th and 5th gear starts to show some serious power. TL's has no power reduction if you disable Traction Control in any gears. MS3's first two gears have nearly 50% power cut, 3rd gear is a lot better but still has some cut. Starting 4th gear that's where this car will give you some major damage. Even with those power cut the MS3 doesn't perform as bad in the 0-60's because it still gives you enough *kick* due to fairly aggressive tuning and short gears.

MS3 will start to take over the TL on 3rd gear, and will eat it alive on 4th, and on.





The interior quality of the 2010 MS3 feels better than that of the 3rd gen TL. 3rd gen TL felt like crap when I test drove it. TL maybe luxury but its build quality, fit/finish did not impress me at all. I think 2010 MS3 is better in that department too.

All I hear is blah blah blah blah...........................

It's a 14 second shitbox. End of story.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed3God

Therefore Mazdaspeed 3 wins. It's plain better car in terms of roll speed racing and road course track racing. It will tear you apart. In road course racing you don't make stops, there's no Stop-and-Go Traffic. Oh yes, G35 6MT will eat you alive too... on roll racing. I actually don't even waste my gas on an automatic TL. Those cars are slow.

The challenge is still out there. I will run you on any course if you're in the CA area. I'll put up any amount of money you want. Better start saving that allowance. I have a stock automatic TL, should be a sure thing.

We can also do a turbo car vs turbo car run but you don't want any part of a real turbo car. Just keep thinking your economy car with a pea sized turbo is fast.

[Rugel]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed3God

For those who claim that MS3 first 3 gears does not cut power, read these dyno graphs.

note: This is based on 2007 (1st gen) Mazdaspeed 3

1st gear


2nd gear


3rd gear



All three gears have power cut, 1st being the worst, 2nd after that, and 3rd also has considerable amount of power reduction. In 4th gear hp is increased to about 231 whp & 269 wtq in DynoJet Research. 5th gear on Mustang dyno showed 271 wtq. Granted, they are front different dynos and ran in different times and weather conditions but you can get the idea that both 4th and 5th gear starts to show some serious power. TL's has no power reduction if you disable Traction Control in any gears. MS3's first two gears have nearly 50% power cut, 3rd gear is a lot better but still has some cut. Starting 4th gear that's where this car will give you some major damage. Even with those power cut the MS3 doesn't perform as bad in the 0-60's because it still gives you enough *kick* due to fairly aggressive tuning and short gears.

MS3 will start to take over the TL on 3rd gear, and will eat it alive on 4th, and on.





The interior quality of the 2010 MS3 feels better than that of the 3rd gen TL. 3rd gen TL felt like crap when I test drove it. TL maybe luxury but its build quality, fit/finish did not impress me at all. I think 2010 MS3 is better in that department too.

How about we compare the 2010TL to your shitty 2010 MS3? And we both know you couldn't afford anything better then Mazda..so you put other cars down.

[phee]

im tired of explaining how gear ratios work in relation to power output to the wheels. so i digress. your mazda 3 is a FWD supercar. can we get a and ?

[phee]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed3God

DaveB knows a lot more than you. He is experienced a ton.. If I were you I would listen to him.

this proves that you are a troll.

no offense DB

[CocheseUGA]

Well, this thread was certainly worth the bandwidth it took up.

I like trolls. They help pay for new rroads.

[nova_G]

[Majofo]

Originally Posted by mazdaspeed3God

DaveB knows a lot more than you. He is experienced a ton.. If I were you I would listen to him.

Originally Posted by I hate cars

You don't know enough to know who knows more little boy. You don't know the first thing about me or what I've done. You drive a shitbox 14 second eco car. Pick fights with people in your own class and know when you're beaten. Here's a way to look at it, right about the time you're hitting the 1/8 mark I've just crossed the finish line. Looking at the stats my car accelerates harder from a 120mph roll than yours will from a dead stop. Again, know your place and leave the big boys alone.

Even I was offended... ..but then IHC laid down the bitch be good stick.

[08A-SPEC]

A MazdaSpeed 3 roll racing will destroy most cars out there. 3000lbs and TONS of torque out of that Direct Injected motor. Plus they have a MS3 just breaking its first 400whp and running 115mph traps.

[Majofo]

^ you walked into the wrong debate.. please see yourself out..

[SatinSilverAV6]

LOL a 4cyl accord makes more power in 1st gear than that Mazdaspeed 3.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by Majofo

Even I was offended... ..but then IHC laid down the bitch be good stick.

LOL. He'll be back with another lame comeback. These guys don't ever get it.

No offense to Dave B, I purposely didn't go there.

[SatinSilverAV6]

Originally Posted by 08A-SPEC

A MazdaSpeed 3 roll racing will destroy most cars out there. 3000lbs and TONS of torque out of that Direct Injected motor. Plus they have a MS3 just breaking its first 400whp and running 115mph traps.

lol thats pretty weak. 400whp and only trapping 115mph? I would expect a higher trap. maybe its because the MS3 doesn't have tons of torque until 4th gear!!!!

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by SatinSilverAV6

lol thats pretty weak. 400whp and only trapping 115mph? I would expect a higher trap. maybe its because the MS3 doesn't have tons of torque until 4th gear!!!!

Probably runs a 13.9@115.

[Majofo]

^

[SatinSilverAV6]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

Probably runs a 13.9@115.

hahaha!

[phee]

[lusid]

Girls don't care about how fast your car is but how cool it looks!

I keep reading all these threads because it's good entertainment. Thanks all!

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by lusid

Girls don't care about how fast your car is but how cool it looks!

I keep reading all these threads because it's good entertainment. Thanks all!

That's mostly true but not always. My GN is not exactly a chick magnet. Most think it's hideous. However, after a ride in it, they're either afraid of it and will never step foot in it again or become addicted and want to take it out all the time even over the Porsche I used to have or the TL.

I had an older 40yr old lady from England coming to visit for the first time. She was very classy and very conservative. I didn't bother mentioning the GN when she was here because I just assumed she would prefer a nicer quieter prettier car. However after hearing my friends talking about it she asked if I was going to take her for a ride. As I'm warming the engine up with a couple pulls at 2-3psi boost she's going oh my God, it's fast. She had no idea that 29psi was waiting to be unleashed. This conservative classy lady would not let me take the car home. She kept wanting to stay out and race people or just drive fast. I blew through a tank and a half of fuel that night. It's happened a lot, girls choosing the ugly old car over the TL to go out in.

[ineedmyfixofacura]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

That's mostly true but not always. My GN is not exactly a chick magnet. Most think it's hideous. However, after a ride in it, they're either afraid of it and will never step foot in it again or become addicted and want to take it out all the time even over the Porsche I used to have or the TL.

I had an older 40yr old lady from England coming to visit for the first time. She was very classy and very conservative. I didn't bother mentioning the GN when she was here because I just assumed she would prefer a nicer quieter prettier car. However after hearing my friends talking about it she asked if I was going to take her for a ride. As I'm warming the engine up with a couple pulls at 2-3psi boost she's going oh my God, it's fast. She had no idea that 29psi was waiting to be unleashed. This conservative classy lady would not let me take the car home. She kept wanting to stay out and race people or just drive fast. I blew through a tank and a half of fuel that night. It's happened a lot, girls choosing the ugly old car over the TL to go out in.

I would be more then happy to drop my pants for a ride in the GN.

[Dave_B]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

All I hear is blah blah blah blah...........................

It's a 14 second shitbox. End of story.

Just like your GN, the MS3 responds very nicely to simple mods like a manual boost controller, test pipe, intake, etc. It's quite easy to take these cars from low 14s@101mph to low 13s@107mph+. There are a few MS3s doing 12.6-12.8s@108-110mph with basic bolt-ons and drs. I wouldn't exactly call it a shitbox seeing that there aren't many cars ( I can't think of one) that offer the same kind of performance, quality, and style for such little cash ($22K-23K). The WRX is a close 2nd, but you're still looking at $26K for a comparibly equipped WRX.

[Majofo]

^ you got some 40 yr old cougar from England wet in your GN.. you'da man!

Originally Posted by ineedmyfixofacura

I would be more then happy to drop my pants for a ride in the GN.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by Dave_B

Just like your GN, the MS3 responds very nicely to simple mods like a manual boost controller, test pipe, intake, etc. It's quite easy to take these cars from low 14s@101mph to low 13s@107mph+. There are a few MS3s doing 12.6-12.8s@108-110mph with basic bolt-ons and drs. I wouldn't exactly call it a shitbox seeing that there aren't many cars ( I can't think of one) that offer the same kind of performance, quality, and style for such little cash ($22K-23K). The WRX is a close 2nd, but you're still looking at $26K for a comparibly equipped WRX.

It's still a shitbox for people that can't afford a true performance car. It responds like any turbo car to small mods but far from exceptional.

Don't bother comparing it to my car bolt-on to bolt-on you'll lose and lose badly. I was going 11.60s with VERY basic bolt-ons. Not even $1,000 into it. $200 to get into the 12s. High 10s on the 220,000 mile factory engine before being rebuilt with forged pistons since stockers were no longer available. Let's see a MS3 dip into the 10s on a $3,000 budget and then we'll talk.

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by Majofo

^ you got some 40 yr old cougar from England wet in your GN.. you'da man!

If only I could tell the whole story on here lol.

[Dave_B]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

It's still a shitbox for people that can't afford a true performance car. It responds like any turbo car to small mods but far from exceptional.

A true performance car? I guess I'd need to understand your definition? Elise? M3? F430? What? Surely not a TL. For the price, the MS3 is a performance car bargin. Right out of the box, it's a very very capable auto-x car. Add some mild suspension tweaks and some barely legal DOT race rubber and it's even that much better. Is it as good as say an EVO of the same year? Nope, but it will be on the EVO's heals for $13-17K less. There is good reason why so many performance mag editiors nutswing from the MS3. It's one of those true performance cars for the masses. Just like Miata.

Don't bother comparing it to my car bolt-on to bolt-on you'll lose and lose badly. I was going 11.60s with VERY basic bolt-ons. Not even $1,000 into it. $200 to get into the 12s. High 10s on the 220,000 mile factory engine before being rebuilt with forged pistons since stockers were no longer available. Let's see a MS3 dip into the 10s on a $3,000 budget and then we'll talk

I wasn't trying to compare the MS3 to your beloved GN. I was simply saying it makes the same large gains for very minimal cash. That's great your GN is a rocket sled. But let's not forget, your GN handles like a wet pork chop. There is so much more to a MS3 than just it's straightline performance. Put your GN (even with loads of suspension and tire goodness) on a road course (I'm being nice and didn't say auto-x) with a low 13 second MS3 and your GN will be lost in the dust. The race would be comical, even against a stock MS3. I think this is where your definition of performance and mine differs greatly. GNs are badass rides with almost unlimited potential, but they're good for one thing. Straighlines.

[Majofo]

Originally Posted by I hate cars

If only I could tell the whole story on here lol.

c'mon.. I know what happened.. you gave her a ride in your GN and in return she gave you a Hummer..

[Majofo]

Originally Posted by Dave_B

A true performance car? I guess I'd need to understand your definition? Elise? M3? F430? What? Surely not a TL. For the price, the MS3 is a performance car bargin. Right out of the box, it's a very very capable auto-x car. Add some mild suspension tweaks and some barely legal DOT race rubber and it's even that much better. Is it as good as say an EVO of the same year? Nope, but it will be on the EVO's heals for $13-17K less. There is good reason why so many performance mag editiors nutswing from the MS3. It's one of those true performance cars for the masses. Just like Miata.




I wasn't trying to compare the MS3 to your beloved GN. I was simply saying it makes the same large gains for very minimal cash. That's great your GN is a rocket sled. But let's not forget, your GN handles like a wet pork chop. There is so much more to a MS3 than just it's straightline performance. Put your GN (even with loads of suspension and tire goodness) on a road course (I'm being nice and didn't say auto-x) with a low 13 second MS3 and your GN will be lost in the dust. The race would be comical, even against a stock MS3. I think this is where your definition of performance and mine differs greatly. GNs are badass rides with almost unlimited potential, but they're good for one thing. Straighlines.

Seriously.. Do you seriously think IHC was referring the TL as a performance car. What's your trip Dave.. your definition of performance car is pretty skewed if you think your G35 is at the top of anyone's auto-x list.

[Majofo]

Originally Posted by Majofo

c'mon.. I know what happened.. you gave her a ride in your GN and in return she gave you a Hummer..

oops.. I meant you gave her a ride in your GN and she gave you a ride in her Jag.. or was it a Hummer..

[I hate cars]

Originally Posted by Dave_B

A true performance car? I guess I'd need to understand your definition? Elise? M3? F430? What? Surely not a TL. For the price, the MS3 is a performance car bargin. Right out of the box, it's a very very capable auto-x car. Add some mild suspension tweaks and some barely legal DOT race rubber and it's even that much better. Is it as good as say an EVO of the same year? Nope, but it will be on the EVO's heals for $13-17K less. There is good reason why so many performance mag editiors nutswing from the MS3. It's one of those true performance cars for the masses. Just like Miata.




I wasn't trying to compare the MS3 to your beloved GN. I was simply saying it makes the same large gains for very minimal cash. That's great your GN is a rocket sled. But let's not forget, your GN handles like a wet pork chop. There is so much more to a MS3 than just it's straightline performance. Put your GN (even with loads of suspension and tire goodness) on a road course (I'm being nice and didn't say auto-x) with a low 13 second MS3 and your GN will be lost in the dust. The race would be comical, even against a stock MS3. I think this is where your definition of performance and mine differs greatly. GNs are badass rides with almost unlimited potential, but they're good for one thing. Straighlines.

You're not going to have a car that pulls low 1.4 second 60' and handles good. When I surpassed 500rwhp I had to make a decision I chose the route that could put the power down. However I suggest you take a look at what the GNX pulled on the skidpad and look at what the Vette of the same year pulled.

You are showing yourself to be a true ricer. When you get beat in one arena you switch the argument to another. Case in point the thread was about the MS3's straight line performance and now you've shifted it to handling.

However, I have taken the GN to the auto-x and it was competitive with the other cars that day, two 300zxs, a Vette, and a few 5.0 Mustangs. It had good tires and shocks, that's it. The brakes went out after only 2 laps and I got beat a few times but it was far from embarassing. Put it on a road course where it can stretch it's legs and 700+ crank hp is going to annihilate a "low 13 second" MS3. I wouldn't be the one getting embarassed. The last time I ran this car it was making less power and weighed 3,400lbs vs the current 3,000lbs.