oversteered on a ramp at 35mph
03-20-2011, 01:27 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
oversteered on a ramp at 35mph
There is a curvy highway ramp, somewhat uphill, which i always take at 30-40 mph. it is a rather tight turn and the stock Michelin squeal the whole way but the car never lost grip all these years. It has always been like point and go and it wouldn't understeer or anything just neutral. Well today i was approaching the curve rather fast at about 50mph and i braked moderately to slow down to 35 and i went with the curve while feathering the throttle but suddenly my rear wheels let go! The fronts seemed planted and the TCS helped me quickly regain control. Somewhat like when you go on any icy road and you start fishtailing and you keep turning where you want the car to go until you regain control. I was totally surprised, the road looked dry but maybe moisture from tires made it somewhat frosty (30'f weather)? I haven't had a chance to check tire pressure but couple weeks back i pumped them up to 37F and 34R. These settings always been good for me. I havent had the chance to check current tire pressure they are still warm, i will check this tomo morning. i had an alignment just 6 months ago. tires have about 7/32 tread left. anybody else experience oversteers with this car? should i change tire pressure? thanks.
Last edited by pickler; 03-20-2011 at 01:31 AM.
03-20-2011, 02:01 AM
#3
^ wat he said
if you where just gettin off the brakes while somewhat in the turn u might have made the tail light. i always hammer the brakes before entry then power out. understeer seems to be easier to control from my experience
if you where just gettin off the brakes while somewhat in the turn u might have made the tail light. i always hammer the brakes before entry then power out. understeer seems to be easier to control from my experience
03-20-2011, 02:14 AM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
yes i just got off brakes and apllied some gas when the rear went lose. i guess i should enter curves at 25mph and apply generous amount of power while exiting corner? didnt know TL is so tail happy makes my beamer look soft. but on a track i would definately prefer oversteer you could take turns at much higher speed and avoid toasting the brakes.
03-20-2011, 12:41 PM
#7
get some decent tires!!! as they age they lose grip -even if not down to the wearout bars
do not stomp the brakes before a corner!
`Set the nose` of the car = transfer weight to the front end by lightly using the brakes (unless hard braking to drop 40 mph to corner entry speed)
BEFORE the turn in point to the corner- then release and back on throttle slightly to keep the car settled
Now the front suspension is loaded and has better bite
Ease back into the throttle at the apex and accellerate off to your exit point
the TL is notorious for being tail happy- oversteer,,rear end comes out and tries to pass the front
This is one reason to put the best 2 tires on the rear.
you can control the front with throttle... but once the rear steps out--you're had
enter corners slower than you think- allows you to get back on the power at the right place
compare that method to same speed all the way tires complaining,
vs set the nose, turn, accelerate
Everyone should spend the 200-300$ to take the TL on a real race track- with a Pro race driver as your instructor,,internet search for track day or high performance school day at local race tracks
You will learn how to do the things I described and much more
Car Control is your friend~
its great fun---sane--10-15 second space between cars, and a 35 foot wide road you get to use every inch of,,no,,are expected to use every inch of,,plus a few in some cases. No oncoming traffic!!!! No Speeding Tickets!!!!
You are not required to go faster than you... or the instructor... are comfortable with
but you can go as fast as reasonable--which increases with skills development each session on track...most tracks max speed 120~ for 1/2 mile,,,and lots of 35-60 thru corners
and ck your tire presures,,spring weather is crazy,,I may have to get nitrogen!
do not stomp the brakes before a corner!
`Set the nose` of the car = transfer weight to the front end by lightly using the brakes (unless hard braking to drop 40 mph to corner entry speed)
BEFORE the turn in point to the corner- then release and back on throttle slightly to keep the car settled
Now the front suspension is loaded and has better bite
Ease back into the throttle at the apex and accellerate off to your exit point
the TL is notorious for being tail happy- oversteer,,rear end comes out and tries to pass the front
This is one reason to put the best 2 tires on the rear.
you can control the front with throttle... but once the rear steps out--you're had
enter corners slower than you think- allows you to get back on the power at the right place
compare that method to same speed all the way tires complaining,
vs set the nose, turn, accelerate
Everyone should spend the 200-300$ to take the TL on a real race track- with a Pro race driver as your instructor,,internet search for track day or high performance school day at local race tracks
You will learn how to do the things I described and much more
Car Control is your friend~
its great fun---sane--10-15 second space between cars, and a 35 foot wide road you get to use every inch of,,no,,are expected to use every inch of,,plus a few in some cases. No oncoming traffic!!!! No Speeding Tickets!!!!
You are not required to go faster than you... or the instructor... are comfortable with
but you can go as fast as reasonable--which increases with skills development each session on track...most tracks max speed 120~ for 1/2 mile,,,and lots of 35-60 thru corners
and ck your tire presures,,spring weather is crazy,,I may have to get nitrogen!
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03-20-2011, 01:54 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
hey thanks for the response but i did not stump the brakes! i think i only applied 50% braking?! the thing is i dont think the front tires lost any grip, even though it was an uphill with lots of weight transfer to the rear outer side of the car. im totaly dumbfounded as to why my rears let go. my steering was not smooth however and i think that was also the cause. i have taken sharper turns at faster speeds with harder braking and this never happened before (i even braked during the turn with same tires). im considering higher rear tire pressure?!
03-20-2011, 03:08 PM
#9
Senior Moderator
^ the braking is what started it. Most likely just the right combination of lift off throttle, braking and turn in. There was just enough of a weight transfer to get more weight for traction on the front tires reducing the traction of the rears (that and its winter yet, road temps are colder, most likely a salt film on the road as well reducing traction)
My car is set up right now that it is very nuetral (almost no understeer) with a hint of oversteer. Nothing is wrong with your car.
My car is set up right now that it is very nuetral (almost no understeer) with a hint of oversteer. Nothing is wrong with your car.
03-20-2011, 03:24 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
^ the braking is what started it. Most likely just the right combination of lift off throttle, braking and turn in. There was just enough of a weight transfer to get more weight for traction on the front tires reducing the traction of the rears (that and its winter yet, road temps are colder, most likely a salt film on the road as well reducing traction)
My car is set up right now that it is very nuetral (almost no understeer) with a hint of oversteer. Nothing is wrong with your car.
My car is set up right now that it is very nuetral (almost no understeer) with a hint of oversteer. Nothing is wrong with your car.
03-20-2011, 06:14 PM
#11
tire pressure is based partially on car weight and tire size,,low profiles etc
best way to find right pressure is a temp gun - 30 bucks from harbor freight--
no you dont have to have one,,, but its useful in many projects and parts of the car
(example: want to find the dead coil- temp of exhaust header will be different)
tire temp across its surface is how you tell what the pressure is doing
my comment on `stomping` brakes was about different member who suggested that as their driving style~ or maybe these old eyes misread
I try not to make personal attacks,,now if someone is feeling guilty
best way to find right pressure is a temp gun - 30 bucks from harbor freight--
no you dont have to have one,,, but its useful in many projects and parts of the car
(example: want to find the dead coil- temp of exhaust header will be different)
tire temp across its surface is how you tell what the pressure is doing
my comment on `stomping` brakes was about different member who suggested that as their driving style~ or maybe these old eyes misread
I try not to make personal attacks,,now if someone is feeling guilty
03-20-2011, 06:17 PM
#12
the best TL crash stories always start with--I entered my favorite corner at my usual overspeed and suddenly I was looking at the wall and headed backwards,,thru the air,,off the curb...
at which point the girlfriend realized he wasnt just showing off again,,,
(taken from true ziner story)
at which point the girlfriend realized he wasnt just showing off again,,,
(taken from true ziner story)
03-20-2011, 06:18 PM
#13
track day school will teach you to drive to the edge of traction,,,and stay within its limits
03-20-2011, 09:53 PM
#14
Senior Moderator
yep im thinking it was my driving as well. just a question what tire pressure are you running to improve handling and cornering grip? my bmw manual requires 32F 38R and im guessing this is to reduce oversteer? I know the tl is front heavy so it doesn't need a lot of pressure in the front to improve handling but maybe i should run different pressure?
03-20-2011, 11:37 PM
#15
honestly thats the way i feel the car is most neutral throughout the turn(esp. with stock suspension, with a lowered suspension i usually go in with more speed, braking later since the weight transfer isnt that drastic)
but yea i try to do all my braking before even turning the wheel then coast to the apex n gently get on it again as i aim for the exit.
i look at it this way, the less forces acting on the tires simultaneously the more grip i can dedicate to a specific task
03-21-2011, 01:13 AM
#16
thats why its: brake to entry speed, turn in, straighten wheels, apply slight throttle to keep suspension settled and tires loaded, not coasting to apex or thru corner,,on the power slightly,
clip the apex and apply full throttle as desired off the apex
clip the apex and apply full throttle as desired off the apex
03-21-2011, 10:59 AM
#18
Senior Moderator
i never had a problem even in stock form getting the rear end to come around. IT is also the reason i dont like many wanting just the rear swaybar to improve handling. The front needs the upgrade more than the rear.
03-21-2011, 05:10 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
ass heavy as in understeers a lot? then you should drive mine man. it never likes to go straight, there is very little grip during spirited driving. i need some good tires, thinking michelin hydroedge. if you want your rears to be lose get the stock michelins. btw i my friend can take this curve at 45-50mph with no tire squeal or any signs of wanting to let go with his corolla xrs. my car starts losing grip at 40.
03-21-2011, 05:27 PM
#20
ck his tires g loading in the turn-in and follow thru to the apex
sublte driving differance make big differance on track
sublte driving differance make big differance on track
03-22-2011, 10:03 AM
#21
Senior Moderator
ass heavy as in understeers a lot? then you should drive mine man. it never likes to go straight, there is very little grip during spirited driving. i need some good tires, thinking michelin hydroedge. if you want your rears to be lose get the stock michelins. btw i my friend can take this curve at 45-50mph with no tire squeal or any signs of wanting to let go with his corolla xrs. my car starts losing grip at 40.
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