pohljm

Well it seems to me that the stock intake has one benefit over all the aftermarket ones and that is its plastic construction, well maybe not the plastic itself, but the thermal properties of the plastic specifically. Much of the performance gains of these intake systems seem to be predicated on the COLDER air charge. I dont know about you, but my AEM intake tube is anything but cold after driving. I realize that underway the tube cools as air is sucked thru it and the underhood temperature is less while in motion, but it seems like with the proper insulation I can reduce the transfer of ambient heat into this intake tube and thereby reduce the temperature of the intake air significantly. Has anyone tried this yet? I am doing some investigating to determine the best material for the job, 1/4" ceramic fiber blankets are what I am looking at currently. There are also some pipe insulation materials available in 3.5"ID like rock wool, cellular glass, fiberglass and urethane, but most are semirigid and will be difficult to follow the bends and curves of the intake. What do you guys think?

ayethetiense

they have exahust wraps. they wrap the exhaust because they want to keep it as hot as possible to keep the air running through once it passes the CAT. by keeping the temp as high as possible on the exit, it will go out faster (supposedly)

would it keep the heat out of the intake tube?

and it is pliable, kind of like duct tape with with a chemical substance that hardens after it is heated. not sure how much you need to heat it to get it to react that way though. and it essentially melts and forms. once it hardens, it stays in that state.

Inaccurate

Bravo !!!! I had and have the same concern. For a few days after just installing my intake, I would lift the hood to feel the pipe's temp after getting home. My first thought were the same as stated by pohljm. We need some home-grown R&D !!!

Inaccurate

<< would it keep the heat out of the intake tube? >>

Thermodynamics 101 = Yes, this is the correct concept. In Thermodynamics terms, we are fighting the TRANSFER of heat from a hotter area to a cooler area. Anything that is intended to prevent the TRANSFER of heat is what we are seeking. But, obviuosly, we want a material that would not look getho, nor be to bulkly (that getho again).

King of Pain

How about this?

http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/co...ake_system.php

Inaccurate

Wow, who would had thought it ??? Great find...you're the King !!! I wonder what the price is for the wrap ?

Inaccurate

I think this stuff from Home Depot would work. It is similiar to a heavy duty bubble wrap (small bubble type) with a heavy foil covering. I used it many years ago to insulate my fuel tank from the muffler (not the TL, another car). So, I know this stuff can take a lot of heat without melting like you would think. And, it also did an excellant job in insulating my fuel tank from the muffler heat.



I checked into the linked product
http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/co...ake_system.php
I found one place that sells it for $42. I have doubts about this product because it seems too thin. But, I could be wrong.

pohljm

Great Find King! figured that it wasnt an original idea!

As far as the Home Depot material, need to verify if it can tolerate the operating temperatures that are needed, it may not be within that materials capabilities.

I am checking that capability on the cheapest, easiest and possibly even better material to do the job. I think a piece of 4" foil covered flex duct may work great. It is easily flexible and the "even better" part, the spiral metal spine, ie spring, in the ductwork will ensure an airspace between the fiberglass batt insulation and the intake tube. Zip tie the spiral wire at each end of intake tube using the tension in the wire to curve it to the pipe curvature, then zip tie the foil covering to the tube neatly concealing the insulation. I am checking on the max temperature that the mylar like ductwork can tolerate. worst case would be to strip the ductwork film from the spiral metal and go with just the wire, the fiberglass and the foil all which can withstand the operating temperatures.

Wow I just looked at that heatshield product and it is made near san diego, I may have to check that out

looks like a project for tomorrow!

King of Pain

Thanks guys, just trying to help.

Let me know how it goes and post some pics.

I was also looking at the hose sleeving. Probably not needed but looks cool.

http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/th...ose_sleeve.php

johnny--2k

good stuff. I'd be interested in something like this too!

pohljm

The specialized air intake product by heatshield is $69 for 3'-0". I just picked up a length of prefab fiberglass pipe insulation for 3.5" dia pipe for $9. It is not very flexible, I will see how it works out

ACTROS

iTrader: (7)

Looks like Aem intake does have some protection from the engine room heat soak according to them. If what they use works well than the intake tube temp on the inside should be considerably lower than on the outside thus the entering air shouldn't warm up during its passage through the tube. If this really works than why some companies still use heat barriers wraps/shield like neuspeed and plastic iceboxes like comptech?

http://www.neuspeed.com/products/pro...ype=&p_id=1940
http://www.comptechusa.com/store/330145tl.html

Installation Instructions for:
Part Number 21-513
2004-2005 Acura TL

All AEM Cold Air Intake Systems deliver maximum performance gains through lightweight, all-aluminum, mandrel-bent tubing that is tuned in both length and diameter. The aluminum will not crack in extended use like plastic. The tube length and diameter are matched for each specific engine to give power over a broad RPM range. Unlike plastic systems that use a continually diverging cross-section, we take advantage of the acoustical energy in the inlet duct to promote cylinder filling during the intake valve-opening event. ***Every intake is coated with a high-gloss, heat-reducing Zirconia based powder coating. This special blend of powder coating helps reduce heat penetration, which in turn reduces the temperature of the inlet air charge. *** The cooler inlet air temperature translates to more power during the combustion process because cool air is denser than warm air.

trancemission

interesting....

pohljm

well that is all fine and good, but there is not a material, especially a coating, around that will truly resist the thermal transfer from the exterior side of the thin aluminum tube to the interior.

I have now installed a piece of jacketed fiberglass pipe insulation from the throttle body to the 90 bend as it goes behind the battery. I may borrow a non contact pyrometer to take some readings, but I can tell the difference already. coming back from lunch the car responds as if it is breathing air on a real cold night, and it is 85 degrees out there. The jacket on the insulation is very warm to touch, but nothing like the 180+ degrees the intake tube was at prior. where the tube comes out of the insulation alongside the battery it is barely warm, there seems to be alot of airflow channeled to this spot. I may remove a portion of the rubber gasket along the top of the cowl from the outside edge to about the windshield washer nozzle to create an opening to allow the underhood air to escape at that point.

So far I am pretty happy with the increased performance that the DIY insulation seems to provide. I hope some others try different methods and we can get a consensus on this

pohljm

Here is what I am talking about. This was done in literally 5 mins, so I still need to clean up the edge and seal it with foil tape to eliminate the ambient air from penetrating. I may look to complete the insulation down the rest of the tube, but I think it gets enough airflow in this area to keep it cool when your in motion.

ayethetiense

whoa, that looks like a fire waiting to happen

pohljm

yeah except that the material is good up to 850 degrees

ussi

iTrader: (1)

where did you get the material..great idea!

just wished it looked better

pohljm

ussi, I picked it up at an insulation supplier that deals with industrial piping. Pacific Insulation, They have a place in Carson. I am sure you can find it somewhere in OC. It is Johns Manville micro-lock for a 3.5" diameter pipe. This is the 1" thick material that they had in stock, but in the catalog they have 1/2" which wouldnt be so bulky and I bet would perform nearly as well. They have matching tape to finish off the ends with. I was hoping to find it with a foil jacket. I am sure they have something like that somewhere, its just that this was the first place i tried. As far as looks go no one sees it with the hood down, and it is easily removed for showing if need be.

ussi

iTrader: (1)

^^Thanks!

i'll check it out at the meet if you're there

pohljm

yes I am planning on being there!

pohljm

got this thought from another thread, do you think any OBDII scanner can give us these temperatures? I would love to see exactly how much cooler it is with the insulation.

ACCURATEin

MaFreCoLa

Kinda looks like a roll of paper towels. Nonetheless, it's a great idea.

Inaccurate

I think that pohljm did a great job to bring this issue to our attention. I think pohljm deserves a KUDO for so quickly putting together a proof-of-concept to test the benefits. After proof-of-concept, we can concentration and making it look pretty.

This weekend, I will install a prototype sheild (again as proof-of-concept) using the HomeDepot material.

pohljm

Does anyone know if all the OBDII scanners can read our IAT sensors in real time? That is the real tool that we need to determine the affect of the insulation. My guess is that the 1" thickness is overkill. I will try to get some of the same insulation in the 1/2", I think that will be much easier to make look cosmetically acceptable.

pohljm

OK, here is what I have learned. The original insulation that I used was for 3.5" pipe and it was actually 4" ID. The place where I get the material does not have anything with .5" thick insulation. So what I did was take a new piece designed for 2.5" pipe, so 3" ID and I cut numerous .25" deep slits lengthwise in the insulation and then removed the slivers to achieve a 3.5"ID, leaving .75" of insulation thickness. the insulated tube is now +/- 4.75" across. It now looks very fitted and tight to the CAI.

new and improved version!

King of Pain

Have you noticed any performance gains??

arseny87

Hey guys, I was also thinking about this problem of our cold air intakes getting so hot that they basically negate what they are intended for. I was thinking of using a heat insulating tape, not sure of an exact product but ive seen people, especially with turbos and intercoolers, using it. Im going to look around but definately keep us updated on the home depot material and that other sleeve!

pohljm

Well I have noticed that the car seems more responsive....how should I say this.........kinda like its more eager to accelerate. Its like .....can you feel how your cars performance is improved when you take it out on that first really crisp morning or night and its breathing that cold dense air? Its like that except its now at lunch time when its 80 degrees out.

bTwix

Nice work. Any chance you'll do a dyno for this mod?

pohljm

If there was a dyno day at one of the places in town I might, but I have not dynoed any of the other mods so I do not have a baseline. I was hoping to take some IAT sensor temp readings with an OBD-II scanner on my vehicle and another 3rd gen with an AEM without insulation when we arrive at the So. Cal BBQue meet this sunday just to see what the difference is.

Inaccurate

Good job pohljm !!!

I purchased my isulation material today. My nearest HomeDepot was out of stock. I went to Lowe's instead...Lowe's had it.

I plan to take so pics tomorrow while installing. So, maybe tomorrow night I will have some pics for "show and tell".



Reflectix® is a 5/16" thick, seven layer, reflective insulation
Two outer layers of aluminum foil reflect 97% of radiant heat. Each layer of foil is bonded to a tough layer of polyethylene for strength.
Two inner layers of insulating bubble pack resist conductive heat flow while a center layer of polyethylene gives Reflectix® high reliability and strength.
.
.
.
Got a roll of this too.



Styrofoam sill seal foam gasket is a flexible polyethylene foam gasketing strip used to reduce air infiltration between concrete foundation and sill plate or around windows.

pohljm

Make sure that these materials will withstand the underhood temperatures, you dont want that polyethelyne to melt all over your engine bay.

pohljm

Inaccurate, I do not think the polyethelyne materials in both of those products are a good choice for the temperatures that they will be subjected to under the hood. I checked the manufacturers website and it looks like 180 degrees is the max.

Inaccurate

Thanks for the heads-up. I read the same thing on the instruction sheet. The 180 degrees is the max optimal temp that it works efficiently. The 180 does not mean that it starts melting at this temp.

I have used this same stuff to insulate next to a car muffler before. And, it survived the brutal heat from a muffler for months (at which point I removed it for something else - but it was still in perfect shape). So, I have confidence that it can EASILY withstand the underhood temps.

According to the instructions, the plastic is rated as "Class A/ Class 1 Fire Rated" - - whatever that means.

I am VERY confident that it would never catch on fire or melt by using it in the manner that we are.

pohljm

Ok great! good luck with that. I wish we could measure the IAT temperatures easily, but its an expensive OBD-II reader that is needed

By the way, the class A/class 1 has to do with flame spread and smoke generation and those are good classifications

Inaccurate

Some more research -

The following statements are from Reflectix's web site.

SOURCE : www.reflectixinc.com/facts/


"Did you know, Reflectix® Insulation operates in temperatures as extreme as 60 below and as high as 180 degrees, add an air space and you can go up to 300 degrees?"

"Did you know all tests on Reflectix® Insulation are performed at either nationally approved independent laboratories or at leading universities? Tests are performed to current American Society of Testing and Materials Standards when a standard exists."

"Reflectix® Insulation is a Class A/Class 1 fire rated product."

"Reflectix® Insulation is commonly used as a heat shield for process heat."

" Did you know Reflectix® Insulation has been used on pipes ranging from steam line to ammonia line?"

"Reflectix® Insulation has been used to provide a heat shield between workers and high temperature machinery and devices."

"No oven? Reflectix® Insulation has been used to prepare foods when no fuels are available."
.
.
.
END statements from Reflectix's web site.
.
.
.
Check out the top of this page. A dude used it to isulate his car's airbox.
http://www.daytonapacecar.com/Mods.htm
.

.
.
.
.
Here is someone else using the stuff
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/444905/2
.

pohljm

great find! That material has real promise. The shape of the CAI is easily blanketed, and as a material it looks more refined, more high tech than the scrim/foil jacketing on my mod.

The 180 was the only temp reference that I saw on the website, It would be nice to see some actual specifications for this material from the manufacturer. All the spec sheet .pdfs were bad links for me.

deke

You gotta also understand that while the pipe may be +75 degress in temp over ambiant air temps its not heat charging your entire air volume entering the engine