GrigioTL

Not sure if this a repost. The Columbus Dispatch had an article on the dissapointing sales numbers of the new redesigned Acura TL. (btw - the TL is assembled just outside Columbus, Ohio). Acura officials say the economy is to blame for the dismal sales numbers. Consider this, the TL was once the second best selling entry luxury sedan only behind the BMW 3 series. The economy certainly cannot be discounted. But looking at recent competitive sales numbers, the dramatic redesign of the 4G may have alienated core TL customers as well as bring in a new group of clientele.

Link: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...E.html?sid=101

A matter of timing
Honda hopes better days are coming for redesigned Acura TL
Friday, October 23, 2009 3:19 AM
By Dan Gearino


THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
ACURA
Sales of the redesigned Acura TL sedan are good, considering the economy, Acura officials say. The model was introduced a year ago, at the beginning of the auto industry's slump. The new TL, with a chrome front grille and more-muscular styling, was part of a line-wide redesign for Acura,



Acura TL

Wheelbase: 109.3 inches
Length: 195.5 inches
Width: 74 inches
Weight: 3,964 pounds
Transmission: 5-speed automatic
Cargo volume: 13.1 cubic feet
Fuel tank: 18.5 gallons
Mileage: 18 city, 26 highway
Sticker price: $35,105
Source: Acura


A little more than a year ago, Acura rolled out a redesigned TL sedan, the vehicle that was supposed to invigorate sales and clarify the brand's identity.
The timing couldn't have been much worse for the Honda-owned luxury brand.
About that point, the auto industry began its historic sales slump, and the new Acura wasn't immune. Sales of the TL, built in Marysville, were down 27 percent through September.
"It wasn't a good time to introduce any car, really," said Ed Kim, director of industry analysis for AutoPacific, a research group in Tustin, Calif. "Given that the car was scheduled to launch last year, there was nothing they could do about it but try to make the best of it."
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Despite the poor sales, Acura officials say
they have plenty to feel good about.
They say the TL's sales outperformed many other vehicles in the entry-level luxury segment, and they are confident that the TL's design and engineering advances will lead to strong sales once the economy recovers.
"I think things have gone pretty well," said Jeff Conrad, Acura's vice president for sales.
Dealers sold 25,882 of the redesigned TL from January to September, compared with the 35,659 sold last year over the same period.
Acura will fall far short of the 70,000 in annual sales it set as a goal for the TL last year, before the scope of the recession was known. That level would have represented a return to the TL's sales level from just a few years ago.
Conrad says that any fair assessment of the TL must acknowledge the treacherous market conditions.
"In that environment, I'm fairly happy," he said.
Acura was launched in the mid-1980s as an upmarket brand for Honda. The TL was introduced in the mid-1990s and became the brand's flagship.
Central Ohio has a vested interest in Acura's success. The TL and the RDX crossover are assembled in Marysville, so disappointing sales have a ripple effect for Honda and for the hundreds of local parts suppliers that are involved in the production.
The new TL was part of a line-wide redesign for Acura, with a chrome front grille and more-muscular styling. The automotive media generally praised the vehicle's engineering but had mixed feelings about the styling.
One of Acura's goals was to make its image more sporty, said Jessica Caldwell, senior analyst for Edmunds.com. She thinks the response to the vehicle has fallen short of the manufacturer's goals.
"They had some high hopes for this vehicle," she said. "It's no secret that Acura has been struggling for the last few years."
AutoPacific's Kim thinks Acura executives are on the right track when they try to give the brand a more distinctive identity. But he thinks the mission is far from accomplished.
"I'm not sure they're going far enough in differentiating their brand," he said.

venom550pm

hmmmm...interesting.

PetesTL

I think this is another repost. A lot of threads like this lately.

Of course the economy is a factor. A huge factor. What also hasn't helped is the controversial styling of the 4G. I think Acura is kidding themselves when they say the 4G is doing "well." The hard numbers suggest otherwise. That being said, I remember when the first Bangle-designed 5 series came out. The press and the public hated it. However, after a couple years, people got accustomed to it and it later became a best seller for BMW and established itself as the benchmark in its class. The irony is that other manufacturers started to copy some elements of the Bangle design into their own cars. Of course, back then they didn't have the recession to deal with.

The next couple years will be huge for the TL. If the economy recovers and the TL still isn't doing well, then Acura has a huge problem. I look for them to do some major styling changes if that happens. One of the major reasons why the 3 series, Lexus ES350, and Infiniti G cars are doing much better right now than the TL is that these are established cars, with established designs that people feel "safe" in....they know what they're getting. A car as radical and new as the 4G doesn't sit well with a lot of people in these uncertain times.

CraigMacDTA

I can't even count how many times people have walked into the showroom, look at it for less than a minute and discounted any chance of driving it. If I were to guess, I'd say less than 10% of previously TL Lease customers have re-upped and got into a 4G, mostly cuz they claim it's too big now and also cuz of the fugly beak! BTW, we just ordered our Crystal Black RJ Grille for showroom purposes...gawd I can't wait!

TSX69

Sales are definitely disappointing but they are not completely horrible like the RL. It still sells over 2,000 units a month which is pretty good but it has dropped to the bottom 1/2 of the entry level market.

I think that the economy may have had something to do it w/ it but sales comparisons show that the public is still buying other cars by a wide margin (see the 3 Series).

The increase in size/price probably hurt as well ... just as the 5 Series sells less than the 3, the bigger in size/price you get, the smaller the volume.

Of course, I am willing to believe that the polarizing looks are not helping either but that horse has been beaten to death.

docboy

Change is difficult for people. Even the smallest minutia (ie. eating from a spork instead of a spoon) can cause havoc.

Like PetesTL said, when the redesigned Bangled 5 series came out, it drew a lot of criticism. Looking back at some older news, when Audi redesigned their front grill, it was controversial. Same when the Integra came out with "beady eyes." Now the 1-Series and the TL; it can also be said for some of the Subaru models, Mazada 3, Crosstour, ZDX, etc, etc, etc...

Give people time to adapt. I have a feeling Honda/Acura knows what they are doing. It will take time for Acura to rehaul their image and product line. IMHO the 6 MT TL (along with the MDX and TSX) are strong class leading performers, esp the 6 MT TL. IMHO, when the economy eventually rebounds, look for Acura to rebound strongly.

Don't discount Honda. IMHO, they know what they are doing. Give Acura some time to continue to re-establish their image. The MDX, 6 MT TL, TSX, are on the right track contenders.

JeffS

Craig, would you say more previous TL lease customers are moving to the TSX over the new TL, or are they leaving the brand?

I have to say I am one that discounted the looks too. I was offered a TL for as loaner vehicle and asked if they had a TSX avail instead. The service advisor thought I was crazy, but the looks haven't grown on me and it is too big, especially if smaller parking spaces.

gulu100

I think the beak along with the wheels that are offered on the Base Model TL are deterring customers from looking at the TL. I heard that dealers are upgrading most base models with the nicer 18' inch wheels on the AWD version. Problem is the AWD bumps the car up to the 40k mark into closer territory with the BMW and Audi. The prior TL fully loaded maxed out at 38k msrp and could be had for about 36k. New car in AWD version which most people would like is about 3k more now..

venom550pm

^ i paid under 38k for mine, but that was in May.

mlb11

I've often wondered if the dealer network is partly to blame? It seems to me that there aren't nearly as many Acura dealers as there are others across the country. I don't know the number of Acura dealers in comparison to Lexus/Audi/BMW, but I know some larger cities (i.e. Cincinnati) only have one Acura dealer but several of the others. I have a friend in Cincy who likes the TL, but doesn't want to travel 35 miles to the dealer. He is now looking at Lexus as there is a dealer about 10 miles away.

Kingmeow

I believe Boston only has one and Boston is not small.

bagbklyn

I don't think that is the issue, here in NYC and LI the dealers kinda match up to their competitors number. I think it has more to do because the TL isn't really going after one car or manufacturer. Like inifiniti on some models is going after the 3 series and audi a4. The m45 going at the 5 series, the GS the a6. The TL you would think is going after the ES but then it adds AWD so technically its not going after the ES anymore, but it really can't go against the GS because one is RWD and like $10,000 more. You can say its going after the g37 but, the g37 is RWD and has much more power and is smaller inside.

At the end of the day the TL is kinda in a class of its own, and I think acura has to state that somewhere. It's an in between car. There's very few if any luxury car's based on FWD. And this I believe is Acura's problem. If you test drive a RWD car vs A FWD car you will see the difference. Yes AWD does make up for this but in the area's where it doesn't snow or rain isn't really an issue many would like to have a RWD luxury car. Just look at all the competition out there

Lexus except for the Camry sorry meant ES, Audi, Infiniti, MB, Cadillac, BMW. We all know acura won't go RWD but I think if they really want to be considered even a lower teir luxury brand they have to really consider RWD, and even if it doesn't sell well add a coupe or something. Again the only "luxury" brand to not have a 2dr vehicle. It ends up being Acura is lost and the TL since its their latest vehicle shows that. I love my TL, but i'm not going to go down the highway and say ok here's my competition, you pull up to a 3 series or an a4 and the TL swallows it in size. Pull up to a GS, a6 or infinti m, they swallow the TL in price and power.

Acura is lost and needs some direction on where its wants its vehicles to be.

KeithL

Yeah blame the economy when the 4 year old G beat the pants off it last month, very much an embarrasment!

KeithL

Plenty of dealers here in Atlanta, I think the styling coupled with the $3500+ price increase just turned off too many people. Inventory hurt them all summer when people got interested in buying and now they found stuff to buy. The article said 70K cars a year, the 3G did that in its best year and I find it hard to beleive during the design phase when thy bring people in to review and give feed back that they didn't get enough negatives to at least know it was a risk. I participated in one of those studies twice over the years for anonymous makers (one was clearly SAAB) and can tell you they had to have suspicions or polled idiots!

BGinMA

Actually, there is one in Boston (Brighton) , but within a 20 mile radius there are 3 more, one North, one West and one South.

bagbklyn

Your right about this. The price increase really didn't justify the product even for the FWD TL. I know its the first year but when you start going toward the 40k mark some my start looking at other brands. Acura was always the best bang for the buck. While still a bargain besides navigation for FWD TL what else are they bringing to the table to justify increased cost?

winstrolvtec

I am not sure about the FWD or AWD vs RWD debate and if it really has a lot to do with it, definitely something to it but it’s not a big factor. The ES, offered only as a sedan, in one model and strictly FWD, coins it. Every brand wishes their entry car or mid car could get that many sedan sales alone. Audi offers the base A6 in FWD as well as the A4 and A3 and while they don't sell as well as a brand in the states compared to most of the others they also don't use RWD but are considered Tier1 by whomever gets to decide that and for whatever reasons. The 3G was one of the most successful selling luxury sedans in recent years and it was FWD.

In general it's important to remember that the competition likes to group a lot of it's sales, sedan or not, but when you look at strict sedan based sales, the TL is no worse off than any other sedan model from any other brand with exception to the C class and ES. Reason being that they are a product of a large female market. Some might say that it is an excuse but I don't know how else you are supposed to equally judge it.

The G sedan has a lot going for it, recently adding a 7AT and 330 HP but the TL has outsold it on the year and they offer just as much of a discount as Acura but with 0% financing recently, which Acura has never done. Why does no one heavily question that car? My guess, weather you like the style of the TL or not, it is very popular and often talked about, good or bad. Acura was very successful in that they wanted to create attention to the car and the brand and obviously they did that. If it gets all this attention then it must be doing something right.

More to the point of the thread and article that the new TL despite normal economic drop off still seems low in sales compared to what the 3G was capable of. Obviously the style is a factor, so is the larger dimensions. I don't see price as a "real" factor since it is the same as the previous generation TLS but with cheaper financing and better discounts it's actually less expensive and just what do you expect to pay for what is essentially the new type S version but with AWD? It is usually $2k for the "S" and it is usually $2k for the AWD, exactly what they charge more but with better financing and leasing. Some actually managed to get a late 09 SH model for less than what most paid for the previous gen TLS.

Let's face it, no sedan is going to replicate the kind of sales the 3G had, especially now. If the 3G was not as successful as it was then nobody would be saying anything in regards to how the current TL sells because it's not great but it isn’t bad. If the style wasn't so well received then no one would be so critical of the new design either. Should it be doing better considering it's a new model? Maybe, maybe not. There are just as many reasons to say no as there are yes. I like what Pete eluded to about the public making a "safe" and non controversial purchase decision when in these times buying a car and which one to choose is an even more important and critical decision to make than it was in the past.

slammie

I agree to a point. The Chris B designed 5 series was quite different, revolutionary, whatever, so it receive criticism as did the Audi with their new grill. Even so, these cars are gorgeous. The TL is not. Not by a long shot. So, you have a revolutionary design that turned out ugly. That's why everyone brave enough to buy the thing is rushing to replace the shield.

SilverJ

I understand a lot of you have the new TL and are happy with it and I am glad for you. But honestly Acura really made a mistake with this cars design. First the car is much larger than the 3G TL and its 3500-7000 more than the 3G.(depending on the version you get). The car as it looks right now will NEVER be universally accepted. Its not an attractive car and the front and back of it are flat out odd looking. No ones paying 40,000 for an odd looking car even if it drives great and has a great interior. No one was asking for a larger car than we had...they could have released the 3g type S with AWD and some interior goodies most would have been happy. They shouldnt have tried to fix what wasn't broke...

MIKEYDRED

I live in Boston and yes there is only 1 in the City but there are about 3 others within a 10 mile radius.

KeithL

I owned 5 3G TLs and now an AWD and I can say while the price increase was large the car is definelty better built, not sure I can justify the $$ increased was linear to the increase in features and quality, but I assume Acura felt it was warranted. I beleive the 2G to 3G went up close to $3K as well. I was disspointed in botht he styling and the increased width and length. I felt the 3G was a perfect size and at that size and weight offered great ride and handling. Had they kept those dimenstions, and put the effort in to an evolutionary design rather than such a radical departure and created an evolved 3G built like the 4G is I don't think we'd be having any of these discussions. Sure the economy was better, but the 3G sold numbers I don't think Acura will see again based on its current price point and styling.

I thinks the G does well becasue it is a BMW 3 fighter, it appeals to the BMW 3 buyer, power handling and IMO has sleek styling (even if simple) with a far better value than a BMW 3 (nothing against the 3, just pricey).

DeathMetal

iTrader: (2)

It's not the goddamn economy, I'd wager a guess that the majority of the prospective owners are of due intelligence/affluence to have been only minimally impacted by the current fiscal crisis.

The car is ugly as fuck, so the sales are fucking ugly.

winstrolvtec

The G sedan has sold less units than the TL year to date, it must also be disgusting. The A4 sales on the year have roughly 1,600 more units. I bet that number minus their wagon and convertible sales actually puts the TL ahead when you compare sedan to sedan, so it must be just as ugly. The IS is up around 2,700 units to the TL, I bet we can take away the F model as it is out of the TL price range that makes a comparable IS about 1,500 units less ugly, not a whole lot.

The 3G was an exceptional vehicle that was hugely successful for it's time, those things don't tend to happen consistently for an Acura model. The 4G is sharing the market with it similarly priced competitors respectably and does really well when you stack it up against the mid sized sales too. That is where the car is more recently intended to compete and it's larger size is to make sure it stays there when all the other mids get their new likely larger designs in the next year.

The Bangle 5 series was not any less scrutinized then the current TL, how quickly we forget because in a few years time the car ended up being a popular best seller. Most people who hated that design were also posting on the forums saying the same things we see posted about the 4G but now will never admit it. A big reason for that was the previous gen 5 series was largely successful like the 3G TL. That doesn't mean the current TL will turn out the same way but it doesn't mean it won't.

ll_22

This forum is not a good sampling of the potential buyer population IMHO otherwise we'd all be getting a phone call from Acura.

I for one decided on the 4G TL (not having bought any Honda's before) because:
1) It is bigger than the 3, A4, G, C
2) Sportier than an ES
3) Hopefully more reliable than the 3, G, C
4) Best bang for the buck in the areas that I care about the most
When it initially came out I hated the grille. But after looking at it for awhile I've grown to like it and now think the other designs appear old. Is my taste eccentric and in the minority? Who knows but I like the 3, C, and Audi's LED and Infiniti's grille. I do not like Audi's grille or the VW CC despite what critics say.

Point is, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I don't think Acura's design accounts for all of the sales woes. I also don't think it is fair to compare sedan sales to sedan + coupe + wagon + convertible totals. People tend not to cross-shop between body styles IMHO.

CG2PROJECT

Quoted for the mother fcuking truth.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

^
I lol'd.

jeffpa

Well said, ll_22. I agree 99%!!! My only difference from your post is that I did like the styling of the 4G the first time I saw it...it didn't have to grow on me.

I did like the styling of the 3G TypeS, but I am a big guy and the 3G was just a little too small for me. And with the weather from November to March here in Western Pennsylvania, I wouldn't consider a vehicle without AWD. I just couldn't justify the 3G TypeS because of its size and lack of AWD...but the 4G SH-AWD is the perfect size for me and gives me a chance in Western Pennsylvania winters.

bagbklyn

Just like KeithL said the 3G sold great, so why didn't Acura just evolve on the 3G instead of start from scratch. Look how BMW and Audi does there updates you can kind of see the resemblance to the last gen look at the 3 series and the A4. The 4G is kind of a departure, if something isn't broken why fix it. Leave the big changes for the Honda brand. I love my 4g but if Acura had something working well for it, it should ahve stuck with it.

nearwater4me

I do think that Acura's recent design language did affect the sales numbers.
Just by looking at the percentage of the entry level lux sedans sold, Acura lost quite a bit of customers.
Yes, the price went up quite a bit and the size grew significantly.
Heck, the design was horrible when I first saw it.

Funny thing is, I never thought I'd be looking at an Acura for my next car, but now I'm seriously considering it.
While the front grill is still HIDEOUS, the side profile is very handsome.
I already like the rear of the car, just need some more time to get used to the front grill.

I do agree with ll_22 that after looking at Acuras, the others (especially the Infiniti Gs) look dated.
Though there might be less people interested in the new Acuras, I'm guessing more will return after getting used to the new design. Plus, the jacked up price would compensate for lower sales volume.
Just my $0.02

Dan

neuronbob

Thanks for the article, it's certainly interesting to read Acura's take on things.

I think the polarizing looks have had an impact on sales. Also note that the more "less polarizing"-looking TSX's sales have skyrocketed in the last year, and I'm sure the V6 TSX will eat some of the TL's sales.

I am one of those longtime Acura owners (and longer-time fan....since the early 90's) who feels alienated by the current state of design affairs. That doesn't mean I won't ever buy another Acura--nothing beats tech or bang for the buck like an Acura--I just won't buy one right now. (I'm waiting for the next RL, which I am praying won't have the same "polarizing" look as the TL.)

Colin

Because people would line up and scream "I waited 5 years for a new look and this is what I got?"

I don't believe the looks have 'fueled' sales, but I think the bigger culprits are the wide pricing scheme, the loss of (some) perceived value in the base TL and the current equipment levels (and engine) in a loaded EX-L Navi Accord.

The current base TL is somehow more 'debasing' than before, has no ELS audio, and a higher starting price. The Tech package is a much bigger price jump than the earlier generation Navi option further widening the gap. It should be noted that judging from what is posted here, the TRANSACTION prices are similar, but the MSRP is higher, ant this alone might be keeping some 'non-hagglers' out of the showrooms.

The way I see it, a V6 TSX nibbles away ~300 sales a month. An Accord with a 3.5 V-6 and Navi nibbles away another ~500 units. The looks take away a little more, and finally a slow economy and very low production take still more. It's not hard to see how TL sales are off by 25%.

Phrosttz0

word up

Colin

I'll comment on this. I haven't seen that low a conversion rate. In fact, I think most of my TL sales are previous owners. A factor nobody has mentioned is how much less we leased in 2005-2008. Back in 2004-2006 we used to (literally) have 1-2 pages of 're-lease' leads to review every month. These would be customers that leased 36-48 months prior and were maturing. These days, a months' maturities might be 10-12 names, max. As I recall, there were a lot of 2004-06 customers who bought their car with home equity loans (vs. leasing). Thus taking them out of the market for a longer period.

cp3117

Well said Colin,

cp3117

^^

Damn i got bumped out while i was typing.

As i was saying, that was well said Colin.

After a year of 4G sales compared to the competition its easy to see that there is much more too this than just the easy excuse of inventory and the economy.

Colin

Yes, and looks alone do not account for everything, it is a number of factors. It cannot be stressed enough, for several months, this year we could not order any TLs. There was simply no production. This meant that although we had 20-22 cars in stock in April-May (divided by 5 trim levels), if I needed a Black/En Tech FWD and I didn't have it, I lost the sale. (and I did)

Most consumers don't realize this, but when I started in the biz, the industry average was a 3:1 ratio of cars in stock to units sold. This meant that if a store had 100 cars in stock, they would, on average, sell 30-40 new per month. If you start the summer with 20 TLs, and sell 6, the following month you start with 14, and will struggle to sell 4, if you did, then you start the next month with 10 etc. etc. etc.

KeithL

I don't buy that, they coudl have evloved it keeping the overall design principal, freshen it up and make it more solid and ouwl have had a hit. The disign is very polarizing and radical for a luxury line and I have said it before, it share nothing (other than the plenum) with any other Acura. Look at Infiniti, MB and BMW, you recognize any one of their cars becasue they share family resemblence, not Acura. The Tail on the new RL, ZDX and to some extent TSX and RDX share similar tail lights and some lines, the TL is way out there, although the ZDX woudl be it's closest kin.

SSFTSX

so how is Nissan Maxima impacting Infiniti G?. Both has practically same prices. Maxima is equiped with 3.5L and lacks 7AT.
Accord has $10K price difference for same equipment.

bagbklyn

Thats not a good comparison, thats like comparing a murano to the FX. IF you go test drive one you will feel the difference. There isn't maxima that is RWD and there isn't a G that is FWD. Drive in both cars and you feel a difference of FWD vs RWD and CVT vs 7spd transmission.

The accord v6 which is FWD has 271hp 254 lbs torque the FWD TL has 280hp and 254lbs torque.

The FWD maxima has 290hp and 261 lbs torque the RWD G has 328 hp and 270lbs torque.

I don't think they are eating to much into each other on the fact of powertrains. If anything it will be on the interior aspects. But Acura just came out with the TL and the look how close it is to the accord, the G is getting a new model in a year so i'm pretty sure the slightly better interior of the maxima won't be a huge factor once the new G comes out.

Acura should have put the 3.7 in all the cars and tooled the engine differently for the future RL that they just won't kill.

Colin

I disagree. We say this NOW in hindsight (seeing what the released). If we had never seen the 4G, would we would have been happy with a revised 3G? I doubt it. The usual suspects would be complaining how Acura has gone cheap and not revised the car. The car rags would complain that Acura still has bland styling. Honestly, no matter what they do, someone here complains.