Racing ATF
02-18-2010, 01:32 PM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Racing ATF
For those running the 5AT with a turbo, supercharger, or nitrous, I wonder how beneficial it would be to use an ATF with less friction modifiers (henceforth referred to as FM).
A little background for those less familiar with FM. Most ATF has varying amounts of FM. The FM is an additive that causes the clutches and bands to slip while shifting gears. The induced slippage allows the car to have smooth shifts, which is demand by modern drivers for comfort.
However, the FM does compromise the clutches' overall holding ability. For use with a turbo, supercharger, or nitrous, one step in beefing-up the auto trans is to increase the holding ability of the clutch packs. Thus, an ATF with less FM seems desirable for these applications.
For the TL trans, the situation is exacerbated by the Z1 being loaded with FM.
There are three brands of regular synthetic ATF that claim to be a suitable replacement for the factory Z1. These are Mobil 1 Synthetic, Amsoil Universal Synthetic, and RedLine D4. All three have a significantly less amount of FM than the Z1. But, all three do contain some amount of FM.
On the other hand, there are racing synthetic ATF with *no* FM. An ATF with no FM is sometimes referred to as "Type F". Amsoil offers their "Super Shift Racing Transmission Fluid". RedLine offers their "Racing ATF (Type F)" and "Lightweight Racing ATF". The RedLine "Lightweight Racing ATF" and Amsoil "Super Shift Racing Transmission Fluid" are stated by the manufacturer to be fully compatible with other brands of synthetic ATF.
For our discussion, I propose that a regular synthetic ATF (Mobil 1 Synthetic, Amsoil Universal Synthetic, or RedLine D4) can be mixed with racing ATF (a choice of one mentioned in previous paragraph) to beef-up our transmission to handle more torque without slippage issues arising. Because the racing fluids are fully compatible with the other regular synthetic ATF, we can alter to ratio of the two to alter the overall level of FM contained in the mixture.
From my reading on google thus far, a mixture containing type F synthetic seems to be a save gamble for our TL. But, it is still a gamble. I have not read of any horror stories... well at least none that I feel was credible. Nearly everyone that has use type F is an assortment of cars have all loved it. And of those folks, they have been using type F for 10-15 years in their cars that suppose to use regular ATF. Additionally, there are many stories of transmission builders (rebuilt trans) actually recommending for their customers to use type F instead of normal ATF in the freshly rebuilt trans.
I am seriously considering to try the racing fluid in my trans. I already have the M1 in the trans. I do an ATF drain every 3000 miles when I do an engine oil change. I am thinking about adding one quart of the racing fluid every 3k miles until the trans develops drivability issues. I can then easily back off of the mixture ratio.
A little background for those less familiar with FM. Most ATF has varying amounts of FM. The FM is an additive that causes the clutches and bands to slip while shifting gears. The induced slippage allows the car to have smooth shifts, which is demand by modern drivers for comfort.
However, the FM does compromise the clutches' overall holding ability. For use with a turbo, supercharger, or nitrous, one step in beefing-up the auto trans is to increase the holding ability of the clutch packs. Thus, an ATF with less FM seems desirable for these applications.
For the TL trans, the situation is exacerbated by the Z1 being loaded with FM.
There are three brands of regular synthetic ATF that claim to be a suitable replacement for the factory Z1. These are Mobil 1 Synthetic, Amsoil Universal Synthetic, and RedLine D4. All three have a significantly less amount of FM than the Z1. But, all three do contain some amount of FM.
On the other hand, there are racing synthetic ATF with *no* FM. An ATF with no FM is sometimes referred to as "Type F". Amsoil offers their "Super Shift Racing Transmission Fluid". RedLine offers their "Racing ATF (Type F)" and "Lightweight Racing ATF". The RedLine "Lightweight Racing ATF" and Amsoil "Super Shift Racing Transmission Fluid" are stated by the manufacturer to be fully compatible with other brands of synthetic ATF.
For our discussion, I propose that a regular synthetic ATF (Mobil 1 Synthetic, Amsoil Universal Synthetic, or RedLine D4) can be mixed with racing ATF (a choice of one mentioned in previous paragraph) to beef-up our transmission to handle more torque without slippage issues arising. Because the racing fluids are fully compatible with the other regular synthetic ATF, we can alter to ratio of the two to alter the overall level of FM contained in the mixture.
From my reading on google thus far, a mixture containing type F synthetic seems to be a save gamble for our TL. But, it is still a gamble. I have not read of any horror stories... well at least none that I feel was credible. Nearly everyone that has use type F is an assortment of cars have all loved it. And of those folks, they have been using type F for 10-15 years in their cars that suppose to use regular ATF. Additionally, there are many stories of transmission builders (rebuilt trans) actually recommending for their customers to use type F instead of normal ATF in the freshly rebuilt trans.
I am seriously considering to try the racing fluid in my trans. I already have the M1 in the trans. I do an ATF drain every 3000 miles when I do an engine oil change. I am thinking about adding one quart of the racing fluid every 3k miles until the trans develops drivability issues. I can then easily back off of the mixture ratio.
02-18-2010, 01:33 PM
#2
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The following post from "I Hate Cars" was moved from another thread.
Posted by "I Hate Cars":
Like you said before, add it in slowly. Type F makes a huge difference, much more of a difference than going from Z1 to a DexIII equivillent. And you're right, most Dex III equivalent fluids are going to have similar amounts of FM like M1, Amsoil, D4.
There are 4 basic types of fluids.
-Dex III equivalent
-Highly friction modified Z1 (Chrysler ATF+4 I think but not positive)
-Newer thinner fluids like Dex VI with a slightly thinner and better base oil.
-Non friction modified fluid known as Type F.
There are two different types of friction when dealing with a transmission. I hope my terminology is right, it's been a while. There's dynamic friction which is the friction between a moving part and a non moving part or two parts moving at different speeds as they're being pressed together. Then there's static friction which is the friction or holding power once everything is locked together.
There are some fluids that can actually have a fairly high static while having a low dynamic which gives softer shifts and a lot of holding power. I've been out of the loop for a while so I don't remember specific brands.
Generally the "Type F" fluids will have a much higher dynamic friction and a somewhat higher static friction. You just have to be careful because some clutch materials can be torn up by a non friction modified fluid. As long as you put it in slowly and use common sense paying attention to feel you probably won't have any problems.
I need to get started tearing one of these units down to get the specifics. You have solenoids that have the potential to soften shifts according to computer outputs. You have accumulators there to soften shifts (remember the old shift kits that included stiffer accumulator springs) or what I did as an 18 yr old, install a solid piece of metal to lock out the accumulators which caused part throttle chirps going into 4th lol. I honestly don't know Honda's strategy on these units. Then there's the DBW that can pull back throttle for a few miliseconds to reduce torque during shifts.
We know that it's that balance between parts breakage and clutch wear that we're looking for. I have a feeling we will be able to err on the "type F side" with the TL just because of the DBW system but again I don't know if it only pulls throttle under heavy throttle or with every shift at light throttle. Maybe NVA-V6 knows the answer.
My main point is to say that there's a small chance you could end up with a fluid with less static holding power. Very unlikely but I thought I would throw it out there. And "static" and "dynamic" might not be the correct terms but you get what I mean..
I'm really glad to see you trying this. I may do the same depending on your results. I have to do the 3X3 drain and fill with D4 this weekend (if I get my car out of the bodyshop tomorrow) and I'll get a week or two of drive time so I can post results and then maybe it's time to do some mixing.
I probably missed it but are you going to run the Redline fluid? Just curious, it seems to have the best base oil and the cleaning effects of an ester should be particularly valuable in a transmission. Not to go off on a tangent but there's less need for detergents which leaves more room for lubrication.
There is some info on bobistheoilguy in the transmission section. Just make sure to search for at least 2 years ago before all the internet know it all idiots arrived giving poor opinions as facts.
Looking forward to your results. I wonder if they're going to be exaggerated slightly by the weight of your car??
Posted by "I Hate Cars":
Like you said before, add it in slowly. Type F makes a huge difference, much more of a difference than going from Z1 to a DexIII equivillent. And you're right, most Dex III equivalent fluids are going to have similar amounts of FM like M1, Amsoil, D4.
There are 4 basic types of fluids.
-Dex III equivalent
-Highly friction modified Z1 (Chrysler ATF+4 I think but not positive)
-Newer thinner fluids like Dex VI with a slightly thinner and better base oil.
-Non friction modified fluid known as Type F.
There are two different types of friction when dealing with a transmission. I hope my terminology is right, it's been a while. There's dynamic friction which is the friction between a moving part and a non moving part or two parts moving at different speeds as they're being pressed together. Then there's static friction which is the friction or holding power once everything is locked together.
There are some fluids that can actually have a fairly high static while having a low dynamic which gives softer shifts and a lot of holding power. I've been out of the loop for a while so I don't remember specific brands.
Generally the "Type F" fluids will have a much higher dynamic friction and a somewhat higher static friction. You just have to be careful because some clutch materials can be torn up by a non friction modified fluid. As long as you put it in slowly and use common sense paying attention to feel you probably won't have any problems.
I need to get started tearing one of these units down to get the specifics. You have solenoids that have the potential to soften shifts according to computer outputs. You have accumulators there to soften shifts (remember the old shift kits that included stiffer accumulator springs) or what I did as an 18 yr old, install a solid piece of metal to lock out the accumulators which caused part throttle chirps going into 4th lol. I honestly don't know Honda's strategy on these units. Then there's the DBW that can pull back throttle for a few miliseconds to reduce torque during shifts.
We know that it's that balance between parts breakage and clutch wear that we're looking for. I have a feeling we will be able to err on the "type F side" with the TL just because of the DBW system but again I don't know if it only pulls throttle under heavy throttle or with every shift at light throttle. Maybe NVA-V6 knows the answer.
My main point is to say that there's a small chance you could end up with a fluid with less static holding power. Very unlikely but I thought I would throw it out there. And "static" and "dynamic" might not be the correct terms but you get what I mean..
I'm really glad to see you trying this. I may do the same depending on your results. I have to do the 3X3 drain and fill with D4 this weekend (if I get my car out of the bodyshop tomorrow) and I'll get a week or two of drive time so I can post results and then maybe it's time to do some mixing.
I probably missed it but are you going to run the Redline fluid? Just curious, it seems to have the best base oil and the cleaning effects of an ester should be particularly valuable in a transmission. Not to go off on a tangent but there's less need for detergents which leaves more room for lubrication.
There is some info on bobistheoilguy in the transmission section. Just make sure to search for at least 2 years ago before all the internet know it all idiots arrived giving poor opinions as facts.
Looking forward to your results. I wonder if they're going to be exaggerated slightly by the weight of your car??
02-18-2010, 01:34 PM
#3
Safety Car
Thread Starter
IHC,
You have the terminology correct, at least to me. These terms (static friction and dynamic friction) are common science (Physics) terms. The static friction is often shortened as stiction.
Thank you for pointing out that an atf could increase one while reducing the other form of friction. I would never had thought that. Interesting.
The DBW does reduce the throttle at light throttle too. If I had to guess (based on my experiences and perceptions), I would say that the computer partially closes the throttle butterfly between shifts for the same period of time regardless of the pedal position. I would even say that the computer closes the butterfly to the same degree regardless of pedal position. The duration and level of butterfly closure is the same regardless of gear too.
The above paragraph is just generally speaking. Of course I have not timed the shifts with a stop watch or filmed the butterfly closure amount during shifts. It is all based on my experiences and perceptions.
As a reminded, my TL in no way resembles the oem TL. With the oem TL, a person is not able to hear or sense what the engine/trans is doing. I am very much able to hear and feel it with my stripped interior/insulation, solid mounts, and louder exhaust. And you are right about the light weight magnifying the feel of the shifts. As I have removed weight, I have very much noticed the shifts becoming more and more harsh, which I love.
I am glad to see that you favor the Redline. I had my eye on using the Redline "Lightweight Racing ATF". I will probably place my order on Monday for the Redline "Lightweight Racing ATF". I will install just one quart the first weekend after receiving it.
The results will be greatly exaggerated by the weight of my car, for sure. That I can tell you already. During light throttle shifts during the 1st-2nd gear shift with the M1, I am already experiencing a mild neck snap. This has become more and more pronounced as I have removed weight over the past year.
You have the terminology correct, at least to me. These terms (static friction and dynamic friction) are common science (Physics) terms. The static friction is often shortened as stiction.
Thank you for pointing out that an atf could increase one while reducing the other form of friction. I would never had thought that. Interesting.
The DBW does reduce the throttle at light throttle too. If I had to guess (based on my experiences and perceptions), I would say that the computer partially closes the throttle butterfly between shifts for the same period of time regardless of the pedal position. I would even say that the computer closes the butterfly to the same degree regardless of pedal position. The duration and level of butterfly closure is the same regardless of gear too.
The above paragraph is just generally speaking. Of course I have not timed the shifts with a stop watch or filmed the butterfly closure amount during shifts. It is all based on my experiences and perceptions.
As a reminded, my TL in no way resembles the oem TL. With the oem TL, a person is not able to hear or sense what the engine/trans is doing. I am very much able to hear and feel it with my stripped interior/insulation, solid mounts, and louder exhaust. And you are right about the light weight magnifying the feel of the shifts. As I have removed weight, I have very much noticed the shifts becoming more and more harsh, which I love.
I am glad to see that you favor the Redline. I had my eye on using the Redline "Lightweight Racing ATF". I will probably place my order on Monday for the Redline "Lightweight Racing ATF". I will install just one quart the first weekend after receiving it.
The results will be greatly exaggerated by the weight of my car, for sure. That I can tell you already. During light throttle shifts during the 1st-2nd gear shift with the M1, I am already experiencing a mild neck snap. This has become more and more pronounced as I have removed weight over the past year.
02-18-2010, 01:34 PM
#4
Safety Car
Thread Starter
i wonder how harsh the shifts are with no friction modifiers. if they are super fast then im sold. like i said in the other post, im going to start doing one drain and fill (3 quarts) and adding amsoils super shift atf to the amsoil sythentic atf already in the trans. ill see if i can find a good balance.
I really doubt that the shifts will become much quicker. I think that I had read in the Service Manual that the PCM is programmed to have the shift to occur over a set amount of time. If true, then the fluid would have no way to change the duration of the shift. The PCM is programmed for the shift to occur in x milliseconds. Can’t change that without reprogramming the PCM.
On the other hand, I did perceive that my shifts became much quicker when I switched to M1. So, maybe the shifts will quicken somewhat with the racing fluid too. We will see.
In a similar way, I doubt that the shifts will become too much more harsh beyond what we felt with the M1 and D4. The throttle becomes partially closed during the shift. In my honest opinion, I think that the throttle closes almost completely during the shift. This is why I think the harshness will not increase much with the racing fluid.
I think the limiting factor will be drivability issues. Primarily, I think we will develop shutter problems when the torque converter goes into lock-up. I say this because the little reading (google’ing) that I have done seems to indicate this issue will arise. But, the good thing is that this issue will be easily reversible by removing some of the racing fluid. Then, this will be our ideal ratio of "Dex III" to "Type F".
You have a good question of how much racing fluid should be added for the first dosage. Perhaps I am being too conservative with the one quart. Perhaps I will start with 3 quarts for the first installment. When I was introducing the M1 to my trans, I remember that I felt nearly nothing after the first drain. I really felt a difference after the second drain.
02-18-2010, 02:42 PM
#5
Safety Car
Thread Starter
A person might ask "can I just wait to see if the trans slips a lot, and then try the racing ATF if needed?".
Here is the scary thing with waiting. With an automatic transmission, the clutch plates and bands will endure an extremely little duration of total slippage. It is *not* like a clutch in a manual trans that can easily endure prolonged slippage and recover when cooled.
The friction material on the clutch plates and bands is extremely thin in comparison to a manual trans clutch disc. So there is a high change that once the automatic trans experienced an episode of total slippage, the trans is toasted and will never recover from that single episode of total slippage.
With an automatic trans, prevention (versus remedial action) of slippage is paramount.
Here is the scary thing with waiting. With an automatic transmission, the clutch plates and bands will endure an extremely little duration of total slippage. It is *not* like a clutch in a manual trans that can easily endure prolonged slippage and recover when cooled.
The friction material on the clutch plates and bands is extremely thin in comparison to a manual trans clutch disc. So there is a high change that once the automatic trans experienced an episode of total slippage, the trans is toasted and will never recover from that single episode of total slippage.
With an automatic trans, prevention (versus remedial action) of slippage is paramount.
02-18-2010, 03:23 PM
#6
Type F fluid is a BIG NO NO, it has detergent in it and will destroy the seals in the soliniod within 3-6 months (seen it happen). Other Honda trans I have seen run with Dextron I,II,III usually have clutch failures quickly.
02-18-2010, 03:32 PM
#7
Safety Car
Thread Starter
NVA-AV6,
What about the regular synthetic ATF (Mobil 1 Synthetic, Amsoil Universal Synthetic, or RedLine D4) that do contain some amount of additives? What are your feelings on using these ?
What about the regular synthetic ATF (Mobil 1 Synthetic, Amsoil Universal Synthetic, or RedLine D4) that do contain some amount of additives? What are your feelings on using these ?
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02-18-2010, 04:12 PM
#9
Former Sponsor
I went through 2 auto trannys in my 6th gen Accord. The last one never failed it ran it on a mixture of Mobil 1 Synthetic and Lubegard ATX protectant. I would drain and fill with Mobil 1 and slowly add Lubegard until I liked the shifting feel.
This is the one I used.
http://www.lubegard.com/C-112/LUBEGA...uid+Protectant
They now make friction modified supplement.
http://www.lubegard.com/C-177/LUBEGA...ATF+Supplement
This is the one I used.
http://www.lubegard.com/C-112/LUBEGA...uid+Protectant
They now make friction modified supplement.
http://www.lubegard.com/C-177/LUBEGA...ATF+Supplement
02-18-2010, 04:35 PM
#10
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The folks at bobistheoilguy seem to have no horror stories with the regular synthetic ATF (Mobil 1 Synthetic, Amsoil Universal Synthetic, or RedLine D4). See link below.
NVA-AV6 - Thanks for your info. Your comments have made me throw this project into "Neutral", and perhaps into "Park"
bobistheoilguy - Recommend Trans fluid that meets Honda ATF-Z1 (click here)
NVA-AV6 - Thanks for your info. Your comments have made me throw this project into "Neutral", and perhaps into "Park"
bobistheoilguy - Recommend Trans fluid that meets Honda ATF-Z1 (click here)
02-18-2010, 09:41 PM
#12
GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
iTrader: (6)
I was all set to put Amsoil Universal in my trans (have 10 unopened quarts for sale in the BM) but NVA-AV6 told me to use Honda fluid.
02-18-2010, 11:23 PM
#14
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The Amsoil Universal is very much ok according to the vast majority of the people. If you check that bobistheoilguy thread, you will see that they agree that it is ok.
It is the racing version, not the Universal, that we have doubts about using.
Like phee said, you will be much better off by taking a change with the Universal instead of continuing to use that Z1.
02-19-2010, 09:38 AM
#16
GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
iTrader: (6)
I read several threads on BITOG and saw no nightmares but also saw people using junk and claiming it good.
My logic was that if NVA-AV6, the mechanic that did my engine swap & fluid/filter change, the transmission shop that changed the rear main seal & oil/filter last year and a bunch of other experts told me to stick with Z1 on my 115k since replaced under the recall perfectly working transmission I ought to heed their advise.
I agonized over the decision since I already had the Amsoil and was potentially going to be stuck with 100.00 worth of fluid but in the end decided I was paying my mechanic for his expertise & that NVA knows these cars so figured 100.00 was cheap if it saves the old tranny.
That many many have failed with Z1 was a factor toward my hesitating to buy the Z1, in the end I decided to defer to the experts. Only time will tell.
My logic was that if NVA-AV6, the mechanic that did my engine swap & fluid/filter change, the transmission shop that changed the rear main seal & oil/filter last year and a bunch of other experts told me to stick with Z1 on my 115k since replaced under the recall perfectly working transmission I ought to heed their advise.
I agonized over the decision since I already had the Amsoil and was potentially going to be stuck with 100.00 worth of fluid but in the end decided I was paying my mechanic for his expertise & that NVA knows these cars so figured 100.00 was cheap if it saves the old tranny.
That many many have failed with Z1 was a factor toward my hesitating to buy the Z1, in the end I decided to defer to the experts. Only time will tell.
02-19-2010, 10:07 AM
#17
Team Owner
I don't see a detergent hurting anything unless it's more harsh and the trans is dirty inside.
There *might* be an issue with the seal swelling agents but I've used Type-F in a trans that specs DexIII for many years with no problems. And the TL specifies DexIII can be used. As far as I know, the Type F uses the same chemistry as DexIII but without the FM.
I have a feeling some of those cases of seals and solenoids going out were from a new fluid being introduced, not specifically the Type F. I've seen it plenty times when I was an R&R guy and later a builder, fresh fluid is introduced for the first time in 100,000 miles and the trans fails 100 miles later. We went so far as to catch the old fluid in a clean container when dropping the pan because if we found a failing transmission we put the old fluid back in with no charge to the customer.
The only thing I would be worried about is clutch life. There is the small possibility of the clutches coming apart. However, I still run the fiber style clutches in the turbo car because Kevlar and carbon and other materials just don't have the holding power of fiber. I guess what I'm trying to say is while the TL's auto trans is a bit unique, the clutch material is nothing special, the seals are likely nothing special.
I've been running the non approved Amsoil ATD practically since the car was new. I heard all the horror stories over at bobistheoilguy, many personally attacked me for my oil choice. I was called all sort of names for trying something new. But 95% of those guys are idiots. They became "experts" after a few months of posting over there and they post their opinions as fact and what they've read as real experience. In the transmission section, "Whitewolf" is just about the only guy that knows anything about transmissions. Just don't believe everything you read over there, their knowledge and experience went from amazing to a bunch on guys who don't know the basics of how a car works in just a couple years. Here I am nearly 80,000 miles later and somehow my trans hasn't failed yet.
I would be willing to run the Type-F in small doses because I'm 90% sure the chemistry is the same with the exception of the FM. If anything the type-F would have less detergents since it's marketed as a racing fluid.
It also varies by manufacturer. Type F only specifies no FM. It can use any detergent they decide to use or no detergent at all. It can use seal swell agents or no seal swell agents. It can be synthetic or non synthetic. You get the point.
There *might* be an issue with the seal swelling agents but I've used Type-F in a trans that specs DexIII for many years with no problems. And the TL specifies DexIII can be used. As far as I know, the Type F uses the same chemistry as DexIII but without the FM.
I have a feeling some of those cases of seals and solenoids going out were from a new fluid being introduced, not specifically the Type F. I've seen it plenty times when I was an R&R guy and later a builder, fresh fluid is introduced for the first time in 100,000 miles and the trans fails 100 miles later. We went so far as to catch the old fluid in a clean container when dropping the pan because if we found a failing transmission we put the old fluid back in with no charge to the customer.
The only thing I would be worried about is clutch life. There is the small possibility of the clutches coming apart. However, I still run the fiber style clutches in the turbo car because Kevlar and carbon and other materials just don't have the holding power of fiber. I guess what I'm trying to say is while the TL's auto trans is a bit unique, the clutch material is nothing special, the seals are likely nothing special.
I've been running the non approved Amsoil ATD practically since the car was new. I heard all the horror stories over at bobistheoilguy, many personally attacked me for my oil choice. I was called all sort of names for trying something new. But 95% of those guys are idiots. They became "experts" after a few months of posting over there and they post their opinions as fact and what they've read as real experience. In the transmission section, "Whitewolf" is just about the only guy that knows anything about transmissions. Just don't believe everything you read over there, their knowledge and experience went from amazing to a bunch on guys who don't know the basics of how a car works in just a couple years. Here I am nearly 80,000 miles later and somehow my trans hasn't failed yet.
I would be willing to run the Type-F in small doses because I'm 90% sure the chemistry is the same with the exception of the FM. If anything the type-F would have less detergents since it's marketed as a racing fluid.
It also varies by manufacturer. Type F only specifies no FM. It can use any detergent they decide to use or no detergent at all. It can use seal swell agents or no seal swell agents. It can be synthetic or non synthetic. You get the point.
02-19-2010, 10:30 AM
#18
GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
iTrader: (6)
IHC, Had I known you advocated Amsoil that would have made my decision much harder.
I think I am glad I did not know. Maybe in 30k when it's time to replace if no one has bought it I'll use the Amsoil.
I think I am glad I did not know. Maybe in 30k when it's time to replace if no one has bought it I'll use the Amsoil.
02-19-2010, 10:57 AM
#19
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I called Amsoil. I spoke with Aaron from their tech help line. Very much *un*helpful. I scored a big zero. His replies where always "I don't have that information" and "I can't share proprietary information".
Here is that conversation -
Inaccurate - "How much of a difference is there in the clutch holding ability (friction coefficient) between Universal and SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "I don't have that information. I can't share proprietary information."
Inaccurate - "I am not looking for the exact specifications or technical data. Just off-of-the-cuff impression, is there much difference in the holding ability between Universal and SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "I don't have that information".
Inaccurate - "Between the Universal and SuperShift, do the two share the same base such as how they both react to seals and seal swell?"
Amsoil - "I don't have that information". "I can't share proprietary information."
Inaccurate - "Does the Universal and SuperShift begin as the same fluid, and then one receives a different additive package than the other?"
Amsoil - ""I don't have that information".
Inaccurate - "The reason that I ask is if a person has been using Universal with no problems that they could then use SuperShift with no problem if the two were of the same base. In this way, a person could tailor the amount of overall friction modifiers in their transmission fluid by mixing SuperShift with the Universal."
Amsoil - "We *never* recommend mixing two oils"
Inaccurate - "Even between your own Universal and SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "No. We *never* recommend mixing two oils"
Inaccurate - "Seems like SuperShift is not used much"
Amsoil - "No it isn't. It has sort of fallen by the wayside."
Inaccurate - "Is there someone that you can transfer me to that would have more experience with the SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "Well, I have experience with it, but I don't have the information that you are looking for."
Here is that conversation -
Inaccurate - "How much of a difference is there in the clutch holding ability (friction coefficient) between Universal and SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "I don't have that information. I can't share proprietary information."
Inaccurate - "I am not looking for the exact specifications or technical data. Just off-of-the-cuff impression, is there much difference in the holding ability between Universal and SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "I don't have that information".
Inaccurate - "Between the Universal and SuperShift, do the two share the same base such as how they both react to seals and seal swell?"
Amsoil - "I don't have that information". "I can't share proprietary information."
Inaccurate - "Does the Universal and SuperShift begin as the same fluid, and then one receives a different additive package than the other?"
Amsoil - ""I don't have that information".
Inaccurate - "The reason that I ask is if a person has been using Universal with no problems that they could then use SuperShift with no problem if the two were of the same base. In this way, a person could tailor the amount of overall friction modifiers in their transmission fluid by mixing SuperShift with the Universal."
Amsoil - "We *never* recommend mixing two oils"
Inaccurate - "Even between your own Universal and SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "No. We *never* recommend mixing two oils"
Inaccurate - "Seems like SuperShift is not used much"
Amsoil - "No it isn't. It has sort of fallen by the wayside."
Inaccurate - "Is there someone that you can transfer me to that would have more experience with the SuperShift?"
Amsoil - "Well, I have experience with it, but I don't have the information that you are looking for."
02-19-2010, 11:09 AM
#20
Try calling Redline, they are usually much more helpful with questions like this. Race fluids are their bread & butter product.
I don't get the love affair with Z1. It's basically Dex III with a little more FM in it. That's it. It's really nothing special at all, and Honda charges near synthetic prices for it.
I don't get the love affair with Z1. It's basically Dex III with a little more FM in it. That's it. It's really nothing special at all, and Honda charges near synthetic prices for it.
02-19-2010, 11:38 AM
#21
Team Owner
Try calling Redline, they are usually much more helpful with questions like this. Race fluids are their bread & butter product.
I don't get the love affair with Z1. It's basically Dex III with a little more FM in it. That's it. It's really nothing special at all, and Honda charges near synthetic prices for it.
I don't get the love affair with Z1. It's basically Dex III with a little more FM in it. That's it. It's really nothing special at all, and Honda charges near synthetic prices for it.
And agreed, Redline tech is the most helpful in the business.
02-19-2010, 02:54 PM
#22
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I called RedLine. I spoke with Dave from their tech dept. Very helpful. I scored a big win. His replies where straightforward, honest, friendly, and helpful.
Here is that conversation -
Inaccurate - "How much of a difference is there in the clutch holding ability (friction coefficient) between D4 and Racing ATF?"
RedLine - "It would be a substantial difference."
Inaccurate - "Between the D4 and Racing ATF, do the two share the same base such as how they both react to seals and seal swell?"
RedLine - "They do start as the same fluid. Then one receives additives such as friction modifiers. Both would have a different level of other additives such as seal conditions."
Inaccurate - "The reason that I ask is if a person has been using D4 with no problems that they could then use Racing ATF with no problem if the two were of the same base. In this way, a person could tailor the amount of overall friction modifiers in their transmission fluid by mixing Racing ATF with the D4."
RedLine - "oh, you could certainly do that. That would be fine. The two fluids are fully compatible with one another. You wouldn't want too much racing fluid because it would cause the converter to have shutter during lock-up.
Inaccurate - "But, I could then reduce the ratio of racing fluid until the shutter was gone. And I would be ok."
RedLine - "Sure, you could do that."
Inaccurate - "I realize that you can't answer as yes or no to if I could safely use the racing fluid in my application. So, I will phrase it this way. Have you heard of any horror stories of any newer Honda transmissions using the racing fluid?"
RedLine - "No, I have not heard of any horror stories. But of course, I can't say that we recommend it."
Here is that conversation -
Inaccurate - "How much of a difference is there in the clutch holding ability (friction coefficient) between D4 and Racing ATF?"
RedLine - "It would be a substantial difference."
Inaccurate - "Between the D4 and Racing ATF, do the two share the same base such as how they both react to seals and seal swell?"
RedLine - "They do start as the same fluid. Then one receives additives such as friction modifiers. Both would have a different level of other additives such as seal conditions."
Inaccurate - "The reason that I ask is if a person has been using D4 with no problems that they could then use Racing ATF with no problem if the two were of the same base. In this way, a person could tailor the amount of overall friction modifiers in their transmission fluid by mixing Racing ATF with the D4."
RedLine - "oh, you could certainly do that. That would be fine. The two fluids are fully compatible with one another. You wouldn't want too much racing fluid because it would cause the converter to have shutter during lock-up.
Inaccurate - "But, I could then reduce the ratio of racing fluid until the shutter was gone. And I would be ok."
RedLine - "Sure, you could do that."
Inaccurate - "I realize that you can't answer as yes or no to if I could safely use the racing fluid in my application. So, I will phrase it this way. Have you heard of any horror stories of any newer Honda transmissions using the racing fluid?"
RedLine - "No, I have not heard of any horror stories. But of course, I can't say that we recommend it."
02-19-2010, 03:02 PM
#23
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Oops. Here is another question.
Inaccurate - "Is there a danger of racing fluid harming the clutches? I have heard that the racing fluid would harm or tear apart the clutches because the fluid causes them to grab too hard. Does the friction modifiers act like a lubricant, and without the friction modifiers the clutches would grid against each other like two pieces of sandpaper?"
RedLine - "No. There would be no harm to the clutches. I could not see how that would happen."
Inaccurate - "Is there a danger of racing fluid harming the clutches? I have heard that the racing fluid would harm or tear apart the clutches because the fluid causes them to grab too hard. Does the friction modifiers act like a lubricant, and without the friction modifiers the clutches would grid against each other like two pieces of sandpaper?"
RedLine - "No. There would be no harm to the clutches. I could not see how that would happen."
02-19-2010, 07:34 PM
#24
GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
iTrader: (6)
Good info, thanks
02-21-2010, 08:05 PM
#26
Team Owner
I called RedLine. I spoke with Dave from their tech dept. Very helpful. I scored a big win. His replies where straightforward, honest, friendly, and helpful.
Here is that conversation -
Inaccurate - "How much of a difference is there in the clutch holding ability (friction coefficient) between D4 and Racing ATF?"
RedLine - "It would be a substantial difference."
Inaccurate - "Between the D4 and Racing ATF, do the two share the same base such as how they both react to seals and seal swell?"
RedLine - "They do start as the same fluid. Then one receives additives such as friction modifiers. Both would have a different level of other additives such as seal conditions."
Inaccurate - "The reason that I ask is if a person has been using D4 with no problems that they could then use Racing ATF with no problem if the two were of the same base. In this way, a person could tailor the amount of overall friction modifiers in their transmission fluid by mixing Racing ATF with the D4."
RedLine - "oh, you could certainly do that. That would be fine. The two fluids are fully compatible with one another. You wouldn't want too much racing fluid because it would cause the converter to have shutter during lock-up.
Inaccurate - "But, I could then reduce the ratio of racing fluid until the shutter was gone. And I would be ok."
RedLine - "Sure, you could do that."
Inaccurate - "I realize that you can't answer as yes or no to if I could safely use the racing fluid in my application. So, I will phrase it this way. Have you heard of any horror stories of any newer Honda transmissions using the racing fluid?"
RedLine - "No, I have not heard of any horror stories. But of course, I can't say that we recommend it."
Here is that conversation -
Inaccurate - "How much of a difference is there in the clutch holding ability (friction coefficient) between D4 and Racing ATF?"
RedLine - "It would be a substantial difference."
Inaccurate - "Between the D4 and Racing ATF, do the two share the same base such as how they both react to seals and seal swell?"
RedLine - "They do start as the same fluid. Then one receives additives such as friction modifiers. Both would have a different level of other additives such as seal conditions."
Inaccurate - "The reason that I ask is if a person has been using D4 with no problems that they could then use Racing ATF with no problem if the two were of the same base. In this way, a person could tailor the amount of overall friction modifiers in their transmission fluid by mixing Racing ATF with the D4."
RedLine - "oh, you could certainly do that. That would be fine. The two fluids are fully compatible with one another. You wouldn't want too much racing fluid because it would cause the converter to have shutter during lock-up.
Inaccurate - "But, I could then reduce the ratio of racing fluid until the shutter was gone. And I would be ok."
RedLine - "Sure, you could do that."
Inaccurate - "I realize that you can't answer as yes or no to if I could safely use the racing fluid in my application. So, I will phrase it this way. Have you heard of any horror stories of any newer Honda transmissions using the racing fluid?"
RedLine - "No, I have not heard of any horror stories. But of course, I can't say that we recommend it."
Trust me when I say you will notice a larger difference than you think on a full weight car, more on a light car (just pointing that out for the others). Do you plan on a single drain and fill to start off with? I was thinking about doing a quart at a time but if you end up having to do that several times, according to the math it will take more fluid and lots more time than a single drain and fill. I think that's what I'm going to do with mine, I have 9 quarts of D4 laying around. I want to try the (nearly) pure D4 for a while then a drain and fill of type F to get some impressions for those thinking of doing it on a full weight (fat) TL and as a start for the AT turbo R&D.
I know this is none of my business but have you thought about converting it over to the same brand of fluid as the Type F first? I just think it would take one of the variables out should you have a failure. I would think if you had all Redline D4 in there first and then added Redline Type F and had a failure we could rule out competing chemistries.
I'll be right behind you. Going to swap out the Amsoil for D4 as soon as I get the chance. A couple weeks of drive time and then starrt adding type F.
The really great thing about a fluid like this is with a decent filter like an inline Magnefine you can easily double the change intervals and still leave a huge margin of safety.
If you want, I can dig up an old article of some dyno guys tested Redline (engine oil but it's practically the same base) through a torture test against several others and it showed that even with temperatures and stress levels not normally seen in street cars the oil retained over 90% of it's HTHS rating. What it means is you can abuse the hell out of it and run it for the entire normal change interval instead of changing it out after a track event like most people do.
02-23-2010, 03:03 PM
#27
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Ok, I have done enough google research to feel comfortable with pursuing this mod. Six quarts of RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF are on their way. Wish me luck
I have spent more hours reading. The reading is still pointing to the same results. FM is added for smooth shifts at the expensive of clutch holding ability. A trans will be destroyed if you use a fluid with more FM than designed because the clutches will slip and burnout. If you use a fluid with less FM than designed, you will get harsh shifts
and increased clutch holding ability. The reading indicates that a person needs to watch-out for shudder drivability issues if too little FM is used. By reading between the lines, the trans would be ok by introducing more FM to eliminate the shudder if too little FM was present. Based on my intuition, this is provided that the trans was not forced to endure severe shuddering for too long of a time period. I could see how severe shuddering could cause damage over a period of time.
I know this is none of my business but have you thought about converting it over to the same brand of fluid as the Type F first? I just think it would take one of the variables out should you have a failure. I would think if you had all Redline D4 in there first and then added Redline Type F and had a failure we could rule out competing chemistries.
IHC, this is *very much* your business my friend
. Without your help, I would be much more apprehensive to try this mod.I agree that scientifically it would be much better if I did convert to pure D4 first. But, I am too lazy. Plus, I "feel" (don't know if it is true or not) that the D4 is a High FM fluid. Whereas, I feel that the Mobil1 is a normal FM fluid. If things go good with this mod in general, I would probably switch to the D4/Racing combo later. If I am needing to order the RedLine Racing ATF on an ongoing basis, I would probably just start using the D4 too to keep things simply..... such as not having to stop at the local Advance Auto Parts store to pick-up the Mobil1.
To clarify for other readers, when we mention type F fluid, we really mean one of the high quality racing synthetic ATF such as the "RedLine Racing ATF", "RedLine Lightweight Racing ATF", and "Amsoil Super Shift Racing Transmission Fluid".
02-24-2010, 11:16 PM
#28
Team Owner
I changed to D4 on Tuesday night literally 30 minutes before leaving to Vegas. I had to do an engine oil change at the same time and I was really pressed for time so I did things slightly different. I also accidentally brought some of the CVT fluid for the Murano instead of all D4 so I only did 2 drain and refills.
I did a drain and refill, let it run for a few minutes and then hit reverse, first, and second gears a few times. Then I did another drain and fill. This isn't as good as driving it and hitting all gears but it still gets all of the fluid out of the convertor which is the main point of driving it after a drain and fill. It should be at least 90% as good at getting the old fluid out.
Initial impressions are about the same as the Amsoil. Shifts under heavy throttle seem a little more snappy but it's such a small difference that it may just be the fresh fluid. As is usually the case, most DexIII replacement fluids use about the same FM. The whine is about the same. I want to say quieter but I would need more seat time to say that for sure.
One very important point. The double bump that it's always had when putting it into drive is gone. Keep in mind I've driven it over 400 miles but the majority of them were in 5th gear going down the freeway. I don't have much time with it actually shifting gears so I'll have to report back in a week or so with an update when I got more time with it, especially at WOT.
I was very impressed with the Amsoil and this fluid seems to be just as good so I recommend it so far.
Since I've only done a 3X2, I may put the rest of the D4 away on the shelf and order some Redline racing ATF (type F).
Keep in mind the D4 by itself seems to be excellent, I'm only trying the type F mix for the heck of it.
I did a drain and refill, let it run for a few minutes and then hit reverse, first, and second gears a few times. Then I did another drain and fill. This isn't as good as driving it and hitting all gears but it still gets all of the fluid out of the convertor which is the main point of driving it after a drain and fill. It should be at least 90% as good at getting the old fluid out.
Initial impressions are about the same as the Amsoil. Shifts under heavy throttle seem a little more snappy but it's such a small difference that it may just be the fresh fluid. As is usually the case, most DexIII replacement fluids use about the same FM. The whine is about the same. I want to say quieter but I would need more seat time to say that for sure.
One very important point. The double bump that it's always had when putting it into drive is gone. Keep in mind I've driven it over 400 miles but the majority of them were in 5th gear going down the freeway. I don't have much time with it actually shifting gears so I'll have to report back in a week or so with an update when I got more time with it, especially at WOT.
I was very impressed with the Amsoil and this fluid seems to be just as good so I recommend it so far.
Since I've only done a 3X2, I may put the rest of the D4 away on the shelf and order some Redline racing ATF (type F).
Keep in mind the D4 by itself seems to be excellent, I'm only trying the type F mix for the heck of it.
02-25-2010, 03:04 PM
#31
Safety Car
Thread Starter
It is not too often that a large company will speak openly. So, I was very surprise and happy to find this information from Castrol (click here for source).
"The friction modifying properties of the
automatic transmission fluid influence gear change characteristics and
torque capacity of the clutch pack and the transmission."
As we known already, FM is used to soften the shift feel. However, please note that the torque capacity is also affected. That is, torque capacity is adversely affected as we will see in a minute.
"The Ford M2C-33 F & G specification specifically excludes
the addition of friction modifiers."
Please note that we will be using the term "Ford M2C-33" to indicate a fluid that has *zero* FM.
"The coefficient of friction at point (A) on the Ford fluid is up to 50%
higher than for a DEXRON® III at point (B)."
Interesting. According to Castrol, the racing ATF (non FM) will cause the transmission clutches to have 50% greater torque capacity than normal ATF during mid-shift (midway thru a completed shift). And in my opinion, the racing fluid would have *much more* than 50% greater torque capacity during mid-shift than the oem Z1 fluid. The Z1 is loaded with FM compared to normal ATF in my opinion.
"These fluids [Ford M2C-33] have a high
static coefficient of friction."
Yum. According to Castrol, the racing ATF does indeed offer more torque holding (static) capacity.
"The clutch pack/band area of the transmission
generates approx 50% of the heat input to the automatic
transmission fluid. The other major heat input is the torque converter."
Interesting. I did not realize that much heat was produced by the clutches. Wow.
"If excessive slip occurs in the clutch pack/band area of the
transmission the fluid is subjected to greatly increased heat stress.
The friction material used in the clutch packs and bands will also be
degraded."
This seems to indicate that friction modifies are a bad idea. FM have one purpose. FM produce slippage. According to the statement above, FM produce great amounts of heat and wear. Oem Z1 is loaded with FM according to my experience.
"These are the areas where the friction characteristic of the
transmission fluid is critical, particularly if the vehicle (transmission)
is in severe or heavy duty service, ie high loads, towing, heavy
vehicle, powerful engine. Under these conditions the correct
frictional characteristics help ensure the transmissions durability
(giving acceptable service life)."
The TL should not have ATF that is loaded with FM. The TL is heavy. Then add a turbo, supercharger, or nitrous and there could be durability problems according to Castrol. Under these conditions, an ATF with minimal FM (just enough to prevent shudder) will help ensure the transmission's durability.
"HOW DO THE FRICTION CHARACTERISTICS OF
DEXRON® 11 AND FORD M2-33 FLUIDS DIFFER?
FORD M2C-33 FLUID VS DEXRON® II FLUID:
Final Dynamic torque (clutch pack friction) before clutch lock-up, up
to 50% higher. Breakaway torque (the torque required to make the
clutch pack slip), up to 100% higher. Torque or coefficient of friction
on the clutch pack decreases as temperature of the fluid increases.
The breakaway torque of a DEXRON® type fluid at 40°C is
approximately the same as a Ford M2C33 fluid at 150°C. Normal
running temperatures of automatic transmission fluid is 95 - 130°C."
Now, the final nail in the coffin for Z1.
How does regular ATF (not Z1, which is worse) compare to racing ATF?
As discussed earlier, the racing fluid will offer 50% greater torque capacity than normal ATF during mid-shift (midway thru a completed shift).
Furthermore, the racing fluid will offer * 100% greater * torque holding (static) capacity than normal ATF. That my friends is DOUBLE the holding power of normal ATF. Compared to Z1, the racing ATF holds much more than 100% in my opinion. However, I doubt that we would be able to run pure racing ATF. We will need some amount of FM to prevent shudder. Hopefully, this will balance out to be that we can get nearly double (100% greater) torque holding ability from our TL trans by using the minimal amount of FM as possible.
Interesting. Hotter ATF fluid has less torque capacity than cooler ATF. Thus, FM produces hotter ATF because of the induced slippage. Hotter ATF causes more slip. Slipping produces more hot ATF. We have a snowball effect. The conclusion is that FM is a bad idea. FM have one purpose...... comfort for the typical non-performance orientated driver. Excessive FM (any greater amount than needed to prevent shudder) has no place in a performance car in my opinion.
"For non standard transmission applications such as drag
racing CASTROL TQF (Ford M2C-33G) has been
successfully used in transmissions where DEXRON® type
fluid is normally recommended. In this application 'hard'
shifts are considered desirable. Any noise or squawk
associated with these hard or harsh shifts is not noticed
above high engine noise normal in race vehicles."
Wow. Interesting that a big company such as Castrol would openly state this.
02-25-2010, 06:27 PM
#32
Seems like excellent news. im pretty excited about this. now my only question to myself is, do I run the amsoil synthetic atf for a while with the turbo and see how the trans holds or do I start addding in some type-f fluid now (pre-turbo) and find a good balance without shuddering issues....
I wonder if I find a good balance now with no shuddering could all that change after the turbo install...
I wonder if I find a good balance now with no shuddering could all that change after the turbo install...
02-25-2010, 08:42 PM
#33
Team Owner
Very good info. It sums up very well what I've learned but haven't read in many, many years.
The only thing I have to question is the amount of heat generated by the clutches. The peak temps can be higher than the convertor but the convertor heats up a much larger volume of fluid. I guess if you shift back and forth constantly it would heat up the fluid but I wonder under what conditions they were talking about. Also, it takes very little slippage to damage the friction surface. It could be one bad slow shift to damage the surface and greatly reduce the holding capacity of the clutch pack.
I have read how clutch pack temps can over double in temperature with a soft shift compared to a firm shift. I also know that for a given fluid volume and cooler size, the 7 speed autos tend to run hotter than traditional 4 speeds I assume due to the same external dimensions but more moving parts with more shifts happening.
This is one reason a synthetic is so important in an automatic transmission. As it states, clutch pack temps can be much, much higher than the sump temps. The conventional fluids are not made to withstand these temps but they get away with it due to the extremely short duration of time at that temp.
It's also neat that they note how the holding power goes down quickly as the temps rise. As you said, the snowball effect. Another reason Z1 will not cope with any sort of temporary problems like an overheat.
This Castrol info is extremely helpful to anyone on the fence. I too am surprised at how openly they talked about certain things. To get actual numbers on how different fluids compare to one another is good.
I've never read how a non friction modified fluid behaves with the common carbon lined torque convertor clutches used today. Who knows, you might not have any problems.
I'm really surprised there's not more interest in this thread. We're talking about increasing the holding power of the auto trans by 50-100% and we're talking to ourselves.
The only thing I have to question is the amount of heat generated by the clutches. The peak temps can be higher than the convertor but the convertor heats up a much larger volume of fluid. I guess if you shift back and forth constantly it would heat up the fluid but I wonder under what conditions they were talking about. Also, it takes very little slippage to damage the friction surface. It could be one bad slow shift to damage the surface and greatly reduce the holding capacity of the clutch pack.
I have read how clutch pack temps can over double in temperature with a soft shift compared to a firm shift. I also know that for a given fluid volume and cooler size, the 7 speed autos tend to run hotter than traditional 4 speeds I assume due to the same external dimensions but more moving parts with more shifts happening.
This is one reason a synthetic is so important in an automatic transmission. As it states, clutch pack temps can be much, much higher than the sump temps. The conventional fluids are not made to withstand these temps but they get away with it due to the extremely short duration of time at that temp.
It's also neat that they note how the holding power goes down quickly as the temps rise. As you said, the snowball effect. Another reason Z1 will not cope with any sort of temporary problems like an overheat.
This Castrol info is extremely helpful to anyone on the fence. I too am surprised at how openly they talked about certain things. To get actual numbers on how different fluids compare to one another is good.
I've never read how a non friction modified fluid behaves with the common carbon lined torque convertor clutches used today. Who knows, you might not have any problems.
I'm really surprised there's not more interest in this thread. We're talking about increasing the holding power of the auto trans by 50-100% and we're talking to ourselves.
02-25-2010, 09:49 PM
#34
Safety Car
Thread Starter
QUESTION
ANSWERS
Do it *now*. Just remember that this racing fluid for our cars is EXPERMENTAL at this point in time. With your turbo expectancy date being in mid March, this leave little time to get feedback on doing this mod from IHC and myself.
Look at it this way. If you do nothing to your fluid and get the turbo, you *are* also taking a huge risk with slippage. If you switch to pure (3x3) Amsoil Universal, D4, or Mobil1, you *are* also taking a risk with slippage.... but this is a big step in just getting rid of that Z1 crap. So, adding some racing fluid is not that much more of a risk.
If you were to do the racing fluid now (pre-turbo) and found a good ratio, I think that it would still be a good ratio for the turbo too.
In closing let me repeat for my own conscious. Adding racing fluid to our cars is EXPERMENTAL at this point in time.
do I run the amsoil synthetic atf for a while with the turbo and see how the trans holds or do I start addding in some type-f fluid now (pre-turbo) and find a good balance without shuddering issues....
I wonder if I find a good balance now with no shuddering could all that change after the turbo install...
I wonder if I find a good balance now with no shuddering could all that change after the turbo install...
ANSWERS
A person might ask "can I just wait to see if the trans slips a lot, and then try the racing ATF if needed?".
Here is the scary thing with waiting. With an automatic transmission, the clutch plates and bands will endure an extremely little duration of total slippage. It is *not* like a clutch in a manual trans that can easily endure prolonged slippage and recover when cooled.
The friction material on the clutch plates and bands is extremely thin in comparison to a manual trans clutch disc. So there is a high change that once the automatic trans experienced an episode of total slippage, the trans is toasted and will never recover from that single episode of total slippage.
With an automatic trans, prevention (versus remedial action) of slippage is paramount.
Here is the scary thing with waiting. With an automatic transmission, the clutch plates and bands will endure an extremely little duration of total slippage. It is *not* like a clutch in a manual trans that can easily endure prolonged slippage and recover when cooled.
The friction material on the clutch plates and bands is extremely thin in comparison to a manual trans clutch disc. So there is a high change that once the automatic trans experienced an episode of total slippage, the trans is toasted and will never recover from that single episode of total slippage.
With an automatic trans, prevention (versus remedial action) of slippage is paramount.
Look at it this way. If you do nothing to your fluid and get the turbo, you *are* also taking a huge risk with slippage. If you switch to pure (3x3) Amsoil Universal, D4, or Mobil1, you *are* also taking a risk with slippage.... but this is a big step in just getting rid of that Z1 crap. So, adding some racing fluid is not that much more of a risk.
If you were to do the racing fluid now (pre-turbo) and found a good ratio, I think that it would still be a good ratio for the turbo too.
In closing let me repeat for my own conscious. Adding racing fluid to our cars is EXPERMENTAL at this point in time.
02-25-2010, 10:36 PM
#35
Safety Car
Thread Starter
IHC,
As always, it is a pleasure to hear your feedback.
LOL about the quietness. Imagine how I would feel if you were not here. Or, if Bert was not here. Without you and Bert, it would be like “cricket, cricket”. LOL.
It is up to us three to pave the way….. “to boldly go were none have gone before.”
I think it is probably like with the turbo. Others are interested, but they are silently watching from the sidelines to see the results first. Once the others see that the “waters are safe, they will dive in too”. Or, they will see us get eaten by the sharks and they will run for their lives as we bleed to death
How is the D4 performing for you? You should see the full effects since you did at least two drains. When I dumped my Z1 and introduced the M1, I took a 15 minute drive after the first drain to mix the fluids. I felt an extremely small difference. After doing the second drain and taking another 15 minute drive to mix the fluids, I felt a huge difference after the second drain. Did a third and a fourth drain, and I felt little additional difference. The bulk of the difference occurred after that second drain. By the way, these four drains were all done back to back in the same day.
As always, it is a pleasure to hear your feedback.
LOL about the quietness. Imagine how I would feel if you were not here. Or, if Bert was not here. Without you and Bert, it would be like “cricket, cricket”. LOL.
It is up to us three to pave the way….. “to boldly go were none have gone before.”
I think it is probably like with the turbo. Others are interested, but they are silently watching from the sidelines to see the results first. Once the others see that the “waters are safe, they will dive in too”. Or, they will see us get eaten by the sharks and they will run for their lives as we bleed to death
How is the D4 performing for you? You should see the full effects since you did at least two drains. When I dumped my Z1 and introduced the M1, I took a 15 minute drive after the first drain to mix the fluids. I felt an extremely small difference. After doing the second drain and taking another 15 minute drive to mix the fluids, I felt a huge difference after the second drain. Did a third and a fourth drain, and I felt little additional difference. The bulk of the difference occurred after that second drain. By the way, these four drains were all done back to back in the same day.
02-26-2010, 12:20 AM
#36
thanks for answering that one. ive done 6 drain and fills with amsoil synthetic atf over the past 3 months so there is very little z1 in there. I have 9 quarts still sitting around and I might as well buy some amsoil type F when I get home. I think Ill do 2 more drain and fills with regular synthetic and Ill buy 6 quarts amsoil type F
lets say for example, you find a good balance of 60% synthetic atf and 40% type F and that gives you your maximum amount of type F before you experience shuddering. your next drain and fill interval comes up and you want to keep the ratio the same. your going to drain your 3 quarts but how much of each fluid do you pour back in to keep that 60/40 ratio in the tranny? is it as simple as pouring 60/40 back in? that doesnt seem like it would work. I hate math
Im just the peanut gallery in this thread lol. you guys have all the valuable info. your research is much appreciated
lets say for example, you find a good balance of 60% synthetic atf and 40% type F and that gives you your maximum amount of type F before you experience shuddering. your next drain and fill interval comes up and you want to keep the ratio the same. your going to drain your 3 quarts but how much of each fluid do you pour back in to keep that 60/40 ratio in the tranny? is it as simple as pouring 60/40 back in? that doesnt seem like it would work. I hate math
Im just the peanut gallery in this thread lol. you guys have all the valuable info. your research is much appreciated
02-27-2010, 12:15 AM
#37
since the people at amsoil didnt have any answers regarding the mixing of the 2 fluids (except to say that we dont recommend it) and the redline people said it would not be a problem, is it safe to say that the amsoil fluids could be mixed without a problem and that the amsoil tech didnt want to share info?
edit
taken from amsoils site
COMPATIBILITY
AMSOIL Synthetic Super Shift® Racing Transmission Fluid is fully compatible with other fluids. However, a mixture of AMSOIL Super Shift® and another oil will decrease performance and offer a shorter service life than pure AMSOIL Synthetic Super Shift® Racing Transmission Fluid.
edit
taken from amsoils site
COMPATIBILITY
AMSOIL Synthetic Super Shift® Racing Transmission Fluid is fully compatible with other fluids. However, a mixture of AMSOIL Super Shift® and another oil will decrease performance and offer a shorter service life than pure AMSOIL Synthetic Super Shift® Racing Transmission Fluid.
02-27-2010, 12:57 AM
#38
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Amsoil is way too cautious and conservative. I am really turned-off by their attitude…… uhmmm their stance. For me, it is RedLine only. I have no interest in dealing with a manufacturer like Amsoil. “It is hard to soar like an eagle when you are surrounded by buzzards.”
I feel strongly that there is no problem with mixing the Amsoil Universal with the Amsoil Super Shift.
My researching has never reveal any issue where an ATF was not fully mixable and compatible with another ATF.
The compatibility disclaimer is a cover-your-ass statement. The following is how in interpret the clause. If you use the Amsoil Super Shift (or any other fluid for that matter) and mix it with other ATF of unknown quality, well of course the performance of the Amsoil would become questionable. Not questionable because of a mixing problem. But questionable only because we don’t know the quality of that second fluid.
According to Amsoil’s perspective as it relates to this compatibility disclaimer, the Amsoil is the best fluid that exist. Therefore, if you “dilute” the Amsoil with another fluid (they are assuming it would not be another Amsoil product), then of course the Amsoil would have “decrease performance” according to the compatibility disclaimer.
My researching has never reveal any issue where an ATF was not fully mixable and compatible with another ATF.
I feel strongly that there is no problem with mixing the Amsoil Universal with the Amsoil Super Shift.
Feel free to ask more. It's lonely in here. 
I feel strongly that there is no problem with mixing the Amsoil Universal with the Amsoil Super Shift.
My researching has never reveal any issue where an ATF was not fully mixable and compatible with another ATF.
The compatibility disclaimer is a cover-your-ass statement. The following is how in interpret the clause. If you use the Amsoil Super Shift (or any other fluid for that matter) and mix it with other ATF of unknown quality, well of course the performance of the Amsoil would become questionable. Not questionable because of a mixing problem. But questionable only because we don’t know the quality of that second fluid.
According to Amsoil’s perspective as it relates to this compatibility disclaimer, the Amsoil is the best fluid that exist. Therefore, if you “dilute” the Amsoil with another fluid (they are assuming it would not be another Amsoil product), then of course the Amsoil would have “decrease performance” according to the compatibility disclaimer.
My researching has never reveal any issue where an ATF was not fully mixable and compatible with another ATF.
I feel strongly that there is no problem with mixing the Amsoil Universal with the Amsoil Super Shift.
Feel free to ask more.
It's lonely in here.
02-27-2010, 02:12 AM
#39
I was thinking the same thing.
Now, onto the math questions like I posted above. Ive been trying to figure this out but its either very easy to understand and Im over-thinking it or its more complicated then I can fathom.
You find the correct ratio of synth atf/type F and your trans is not shuddering and your happy with this mixture....60% syth/40% type F. This ratio of 60/40 would be your first time adding type F to a trans thats filled with regular atf. Now a few months pass and you want to do a drain/fill but you want to make sure you keep that 60/40 ratio. If you drain 3 quarts, how much % of each fluid is in that 3 drained quarts? Is it still 60/40?
Do you add 1.8 synth atf/1.2 type F to keep that 60/40 ratio in the trans? I think it adding those numbers back into the trans would change everything.
I just dont want to constantly keep adding/draining fluid each drain/fill to find the right balance. However, I feel like we may have to do since no one else has tried this yet.
Heres the drain/fill percentage chart
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8%
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
Now forgot all that lol. You do your first ever drain/fill of type F and you wind up with that 60/40 ratio again of synth atf/type F. You want to add more type F so you need to drain some fluid again. Your looking to make it 50/50 for example. Are you going to drain the 3 full quarts or guesstimate by draining 1 quart, screwing the drain bolt and adding 1 more quart type F. Will that give you your 50/50 ratio?
It looks like Im typing nonsense and its confusing the hell outa me but the bottom line is this. Ultimately I think we want to find the maximum amount of type F we can add into the trans without causing those problematic issues. Im trying to understand how much needs to be drained/filled each time in order to maintain the proper ratio without having to waste extra fluid
Now, onto the math questions like I posted above. Ive been trying to figure this out but its either very easy to understand and Im over-thinking it or its more complicated then I can fathom.
You find the correct ratio of synth atf/type F and your trans is not shuddering and your happy with this mixture....60% syth/40% type F. This ratio of 60/40 would be your first time adding type F to a trans thats filled with regular atf. Now a few months pass and you want to do a drain/fill but you want to make sure you keep that 60/40 ratio. If you drain 3 quarts, how much % of each fluid is in that 3 drained quarts? Is it still 60/40?
Do you add 1.8 synth atf/1.2 type F to keep that 60/40 ratio in the trans? I think it adding those numbers back into the trans would change everything.
I just dont want to constantly keep adding/draining fluid each drain/fill to find the right balance. However, I feel like we may have to do since no one else has tried this yet.
Heres the drain/fill percentage chart
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8%
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
Now forgot all that lol. You do your first ever drain/fill of type F and you wind up with that 60/40 ratio again of synth atf/type F. You want to add more type F so you need to drain some fluid again. Your looking to make it 50/50 for example. Are you going to drain the 3 full quarts or guesstimate by draining 1 quart, screwing the drain bolt and adding 1 more quart type F. Will that give you your 50/50 ratio?
It looks like Im typing nonsense and its confusing the hell outa me but the bottom line is this. Ultimately I think we want to find the maximum amount of type F we can add into the trans without causing those problematic issues. Im trying to understand how much needs to be drained/filled each time in order to maintain the proper ratio without having to waste extra fluid
02-27-2010, 02:24 AM
#40
TSB from amsoil
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...sDUmSHLjcKXeNQ
TSB: DT-2005-09-22
Date: 09/19/2005
Page 1 of 1
Subject: Mixing and/or Substituting CTG or ART in Place of ATF
Technical Service Bulletin
Product Description: Automatic Transmission Fluids
Submitted By: KD Approved By: Alan Amatuzio Date: 09-22-05
Distribution: ___Internal X All
OBJECTIVE:
To caution individuals about mixing AMSOIL Synthetic
Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)
with AMSOIL Supershift Racing Transmission Fluid
(ART) or AMSOIL SAE 10W Synthetic Powershift
Transmission Fluid (CTG).
ISSUES:
Manufacturers of pickups with high horsepower diesel
and gasoline powered engines are recommending the
same automatic transmission fluids used for their light
duty applications. Modifications to increase horsepower
and engine performance can cause slippage in
the automatic transmission. To reduce slippage, some
operators are choosing to use ART or CTG or mix
ART or CTG with ATF, which does not meet proper
fluid specifications.
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
AMSOIL Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid is a
high performance lubricant for domestic and foreign
automatic transmission fluid applications. It is also formulated
to meet and exceed the performance requirements
for medium and heavy duty applications such as
the Ford “Power Stroke” 7.3 liter diesel pickup, Dodge
5.9 liter Cummins diesel pickup, and General Motors
6.5 liter and 6.6 liter “Duramax” diesel pickup models.
In each case, the manufacturers recommend the use of
standard ATF fluid meeting the same requirements as
light duty applications (MERCON®, MERCON® V,
GM DEXRON® III, Chrysler ATF+ thru ATF+4).
In many instances engine horsepower is being modified
to enhance towing ability and performance. This is being
done through the use of after
market products such as performance chips, turbo pressure
boosters, injectors, etc. Modifications such as
these can increase the demands of the transmission
fluid and the transmission components, however, they
do not necessitate changing the type of transmission
fluid used.
AMSOIL Supershift Racing Transmission Fluid (ART)
is specifically formulated for automatic transmissions
operating in high horsepower and high torque conditions
found in racing or transmissions that require Ford
“F” type transmission fluid.
AMSOIL Synthetic SAE 10W Powershift Transmission
Fluid (CTG) is formulated for use in heavy equipment
and is designed to prevent clutch slippage for
positive clutch engagement.
The use of CTG or ART in transmissions used in vehicles
such as the Power Stroke 7.3 liter, Dodge 5.9 liter
Cummins diesel pickup, and General Motors 6.5 and
6.6 liter Duramax, may cause erratic shift patterns,
chattering noise, or result in possible damage to the
clutches.
RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL recommends the use of AMSOIL Synthetic
Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) for the
correct applications. AMSOIL Supershift Racing
Transmission Fluid (ART) is recommended for racing,
Allison C-4 and Ford Type F applications. AMSOIL
Synthetic SAE 10W Powershift Transmission Fluid
(CTG) is recommended for heavy-duty Powershift
transmissions, Allison C-4, Caterpillar TO-4 and Komatsu
TO-10 applications.
AMSOIL does not recommend the use of, or mixing
of, ART or CTG in applications that require
ATF.
AMSOIL INC., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2005
Reviewed By:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...sDUmSHLjcKXeNQ
TSB: DT-2005-09-22
Date: 09/19/2005
Page 1 of 1
Subject: Mixing and/or Substituting CTG or ART in Place of ATF
Technical Service Bulletin
Product Description: Automatic Transmission Fluids
Submitted By: KD Approved By: Alan Amatuzio Date: 09-22-05
Distribution: ___Internal X All
OBJECTIVE:
To caution individuals about mixing AMSOIL Synthetic
Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)
with AMSOIL Supershift Racing Transmission Fluid
(ART) or AMSOIL SAE 10W Synthetic Powershift
Transmission Fluid (CTG).
ISSUES:
Manufacturers of pickups with high horsepower diesel
and gasoline powered engines are recommending the
same automatic transmission fluids used for their light
duty applications. Modifications to increase horsepower
and engine performance can cause slippage in
the automatic transmission. To reduce slippage, some
operators are choosing to use ART or CTG or mix
ART or CTG with ATF, which does not meet proper
fluid specifications.
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
AMSOIL Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid is a
high performance lubricant for domestic and foreign
automatic transmission fluid applications. It is also formulated
to meet and exceed the performance requirements
for medium and heavy duty applications such as
the Ford “Power Stroke” 7.3 liter diesel pickup, Dodge
5.9 liter Cummins diesel pickup, and General Motors
6.5 liter and 6.6 liter “Duramax” diesel pickup models.
In each case, the manufacturers recommend the use of
standard ATF fluid meeting the same requirements as
light duty applications (MERCON®, MERCON® V,
GM DEXRON® III, Chrysler ATF+ thru ATF+4).
In many instances engine horsepower is being modified
to enhance towing ability and performance. This is being
done through the use of after
market products such as performance chips, turbo pressure
boosters, injectors, etc. Modifications such as
these can increase the demands of the transmission
fluid and the transmission components, however, they
do not necessitate changing the type of transmission
fluid used.
AMSOIL Supershift Racing Transmission Fluid (ART)
is specifically formulated for automatic transmissions
operating in high horsepower and high torque conditions
found in racing or transmissions that require Ford
“F” type transmission fluid.
AMSOIL Synthetic SAE 10W Powershift Transmission
Fluid (CTG) is formulated for use in heavy equipment
and is designed to prevent clutch slippage for
positive clutch engagement.
The use of CTG or ART in transmissions used in vehicles
such as the Power Stroke 7.3 liter, Dodge 5.9 liter
Cummins diesel pickup, and General Motors 6.5 and
6.6 liter Duramax, may cause erratic shift patterns,
chattering noise, or result in possible damage to the
clutches.
RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL recommends the use of AMSOIL Synthetic
Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) for the
correct applications. AMSOIL Supershift Racing
Transmission Fluid (ART) is recommended for racing,
Allison C-4 and Ford Type F applications. AMSOIL
Synthetic SAE 10W Powershift Transmission Fluid
(CTG) is recommended for heavy-duty Powershift
transmissions, Allison C-4, Caterpillar TO-4 and Komatsu
TO-10 applications.
AMSOIL does not recommend the use of, or mixing
of, ART or CTG in applications that require
ATF.
AMSOIL INC., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2005
Reviewed By: