I hate cars

UPS just dropped the kit off. I figured I would start this thread to show the install and later on the performance testing with numbers to compare to the stock system and the current Rotora 13" 1pc kit.

Right out of the box, you can tell this is a high quality system. Even the boxes look nice lol. Calipers are substantially larger than the Rotors. They have a bolt in bridge, Rotoras do not so I'm expecting these to be stiffer. Pistons are two different sizes, I can't remember off the top of my head but I believe 38 and 42mm but I'll have to double check. I'm going to caliper the Rotora rotors to get an idea of the change in bias.

The instructions appear to be for the 2pc kit and are a little generic in nature. I believe these are this is the first kit to be shipped with the only other one being the TL they used for development so specific instructions probably do not exist yet.

I'm a little worried that no shims are provided but hopefully they aren't needed. I'll worry about that when the time comes. I have to assume they use the stock hardware to bolt the caliper bracket to the spindle as the Rotoras do.

The 1pc Rotors look very nice. They're not the curved vane design of the 2-pc but the venting looks exceptionally well done. Being a 1pc, the rotors and hat are one piece obviously but it's designed with slots that look like they would minimize heat transfer into the hub/hat.

I've got a ton of pictures but no time to upload now. I have to get them installed and bled before I lose sunlight. It's raining today, I'm doing the install in the garage but I really hate to even open the reservoir with humidity in the air. I only have a pint of brake fluid so the plan is to bleed them again on Monday or Tuesday when the rest of the fluid comes in.

So for now, installation, then bed-in when the rain stops, then driving impressions and after maybe a week, cold hard numbers for an objective comparison to stock and the Rotora BBK.

Almost forgot, these are slotted, never doing drilled again. Calipers are black, I don't want it to be obvious they're aftermarket.

dragonsking91

what's wrong with drilled rotors?? What are your thought on slotted and drilled rotors vs just slotted?

callahan

In to see how well these perform.

I hate cars

I've got a couple hours of seat time with these. First, the problems. I was only able to pick up one pint of the Motul 600 I wanted to use. The fluid I swapped out only 1.5 years ago was very dark already. I was unable to do a complete flush and I was unable to bleed as thoroughly as I wanted to. I should have more fluid on Monday and I'll be able flush the whole system out.

The calipers clear the stock rims with ease. I can nearly get my pinky finger between the caliper and spokes (I have big fingers lol). These have less clearance than the Rotoras though. From a distance they look very close to the rim.

Not that it's important but I chose black so the brakes would blend in. I've always tried to make my fast cars look slow and any mods to go unnoticed. Walking up to the car after getting Taco Bell, the brakes definitely blend in. If you did not know the TL you would probably not notice it has aftermarket brakes. These calipers are huge so if you ordered them in one of the other colors like red, they would really stand out. I'm so used to the blue of the Rotoras that it does catch my eye now that it's not there. I might actually have to give Rotora the upper hand in the looks department.

So on to driving impressions.. These are quieter than the Rotoras, silent in fact, just like stock. No more airplane noise during moderately hard stops. Was it the fact that the Rotoras were slotted and drilled or just an inferior setup, I don't know.

Pedal has a little travel, no more than the Rotoras but more than stock. Since they need to be bled again, I'll wait until then to give a full review. I'll just say pedal feel is very promising and already better than the Rotoras in a couple ways.

I did something a little different this time. I installed the driver's side Stoptech and bedded it in with the Rotora kit on the other side. I did several stops from 60-10mph until the brakes faded. Then I drove around for about 10 minutes without hitting the brakes to cool them off. When I got back I shot temperatures of each brake including the rears.

The Stoptech rotor was around 140F and the caliper was 110F. The Rotora rotor was 298F and caliper was 230F. Rears were very close at 299F for the rotor.

It's more of a difference than I would have expected but I have a feeling it's due to a few different factors. The Stoptechs have proper bias, the Rotoras are more front biased. The Rotora could have been doing more of the stopping. Not enough to be an extra 160 degrees though. The Stoptechs are superior in heat rejection but I won't know how much more until I have time to collect data on a dry day. These temps were taken after going to the point of fade and then driving around for 10 minutes to cool them off. There are too many variables to draw any conclusions other than the Stoptechs run cooler and I would really like to shoot temps right after bed-in as well.

With the other side complete, I bedded in the brakes one last time. I shot temps and noticed a the rear brake temps had gone up slightly in comparison to the fronts so I'm guessing the bias has shifted rearward like I was hoping it would. There's just a tiny bit more pedal effort to stop, another indicator that some of the front bias might be gone.

On the few dry patches I could find, stopping was extremely powerful. Going just by the seat of the pants feeling, this car stops harder period. It actually feels like it has more rear bias. One thing to note is I was taking it right up to the point of ABS kicking in with a pulse here or there, not just jamming the pedal to the floor. It feels like it stops the hardest right before ABS takes over.

That brings me to ABS operation... It doesn't feel so on or off or so violent. It feels a lot more like it did when stock. Some of these changes in feel can be attributed to the different pads and even the fluid (DOT 5.1 to 4) but other changes are the brake system.

So fade resistance is better, it's likely going to be much better when I get around to running the numbers but I'll have to wait until then to know for sure. I truly believe one stop stopping distance has been improved due to a change in bias and my seat of the pants feeling but I'll have to wait to find out.

Opinions are subject to change as this is a very early review with very little drive time. I really shouldn't be posting a review right now with so little drive time but it's a nice reference for me to look back on down the road.

I do have to note that at the price point of this kit along with the better performance and refinement, I can't imagine why anyone would buy Rotora. Thanks to Excelerate for stepping up and offering a 1pc BBK.

Pictures to follow, I'm too tired to upload anything, maybe tomorrow.

94eg!

What pads are running in the rear?

For technical comparison:

6MT/TLS:
- Front Pistons 38mm/42mm (2519.6mm/sq)
- Rear Pistons 38mm (1134.1mm/sq)
- Master Cylinder 13/16"
- Front Rotors 310x24.9mm
- Rear Rotors 282x9mm
- Pad Friction: FF (front) & FF (rear)

5AT:
- Front Pistons 57mm (2551.8mm/sq)
- Rear Pistons 38mm (1134.1mm/sq)
- Master Cylinder 13/16"
- Front Rotors 300x28mm
- Rear Rotors 282x9mm
- Pad Friction: ?? (front) & FF (rear)


And here is how you measure the pistons of Stoptech's without popping them out of the caliper. You caliper the inner-diameter of each piston and check the chart at the following link. It would be great to get all the specs for the Stoptech kit to compare to the OEM setups. Stoptech pads are supposed to be FF as well.

http://www.zeckhausen.com/How_to_Measure_Pistons.htm

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Luckily the size is marked on the pistons. I know one of them were 42mm and I believe the smaller one was between 32- 38mm. I have pictures but I'm working today, got to wait until I get home to look at them. I'm hoping the smaller one is 36mm or less or it would mean more front bias than stock...

Horditruck

iTrader: (1)

subscribed! I want to see how this kit fits and performs. Been wondering about this for a long time!

94eg!

IHC, Are you sure the rotors are 13"? Stoptech now has the "Touring" brake kit up on their website and it's showing a 1-piece 300x28mm (11.8") rotor, with 38mm & 42mm pistons. This is essentially a reproduction of the OEM Brembos.

http://stoptech.com/Search/Product-D...rs/BigBrakeKit

Of course I have no idea if this "Touring" kit is the same as the one XLR8 has put together for you guys.

Bearcat94

What is the difference between piston area (above) and Swept Area? Is one a better measure of 'applied' pressure than the other?

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Lol. Yep, it's a 13" kit... well, 12.9" technically. I don't think it's on the website yet.

Swept area has no effect on brake torque. It's piston area x rotor diameter= brake torque.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Great info. Looking forward to more info and pictures of the setup. Thanks again for helping out with the wheel fitment info too.

One additional note. This is an XLR8 Big Brake Kit by STOPTECH. Basically, we employed STOPTECH to manufacture a kit for us. We will be posting up info on our website shortly on this kit.

94eg!

Ah, that's pretty cool. The more the merrier.

As Excelerate knows, I've always been a big fan of Stoptech.

I hate cars

Thanks for putting this thing together. I think the cost to performance ratio is great with this kit.

Still raining, no chance of getting any numbers. I'm just going to drive it normal, give everything a chance to break in over the next week or two and then start getting numbers.

I have some more observations, nothing useful.

I had to work today, I left before the sun came up and drove the 1.5 miles to work. Before I even got in the car I was thinking of the brakes and paid attention to them during the drive. Sometimes it's hard not to be bias even to yourself when you're testing a new product and you want to see positive results. So after a horrible migraine (it's been coming on for a couple days now as you can see by my worse than normal writing style and misspelled words) and a terrible day at work I got in the car and had forgotten all about the brakes. The first stop I made required just a little more pedal effort than I was used to with the Rotoras. Since it was in the parking lot, it was noticeable. I also realized I instinctively hit the brakes and start backing off the pressure as the pads get some heat in them. Not necessary with these, they're very linear from cold to hot. This is probably due to the pads, not the whole system but still nice.

The second stop was from 65mph to a red light. I noticed the extra responsiveness, stopping is more proportionate to pedal pressure and once the brakes are applied there's practically zero pedal movement as I adjusted pressure. It wasn't until I made the second stop and was thinking about the positive change that I remembered the new brakes. It's always nice to wonder why the brakes feel so good and then remember the new brakes.

There's another thing that's hard to explain but the car feels more stable when stopping which brings me back to the additional pedal effort I mentioned in the beginning. Everything points to brake bias being restored. To me, when a car has more rear bias (I'm a redneck that had a prop valve in the cabin to play with at one time) it feels more stable, the front end does not hunt around, it just feels more stable under braking. That's the way it feels now, even under normal braking. I truly believe the rears are sharing more of the load now. The additional pedal effort is not a bad thing. The purpose of a BBK is not to reduce pedal effort. You could easily have a 1 piston 10" rotor brake that will lock the wheels with very little pedal effort. Just thought I would throw that out there since some think a BBK should reduce pedal effort.

So I ran a couple errands and parked the car at home. Being the nerd I am, I've touched the Rotora calipers right after parking many times and they're always hot from normal driving. I touched these and they were nearly ambient! I mean, you could barely tell the car had been driven. This is a huge difference. I need to get rear temps to compare. I need to see if the heat lost from the fronts is going into the rears instead, if these are so much better at heat rejection that they just run cooler, or a little of both. Whatever it is, it's a significant difference, more than I would ever have imagined.

One more thing to mention, these rotors are 28mm thick, the Rotoras were 23mm thick. Weight seems very close, maybe it's due to the "vented" hub. I wish I would have weighed everything but I didn't have time for that. I'm pretty sure the Stoptech caliper is heavier though. The bolt-in bridge is a really neat feature. The pads can still be taken out from the top after removing two small allen screws but the caliper retains it's stiffness. The Rotoras did not have a bridge but the pads could be removed with no tools which was nice. I think this is one of the reasons for the ultra firm pedal in the Stoptechs.

I'll get into ABS operation later but there's a significant difference and it's positive (also pointing to proper leverage) but I need more time. I also went from DOT 5.1 fluid to about half and half 5.1 and Motul 600 which is a normal viscosity DOT4. That's why I don't want to comment on ABS operation, at least not yet. I need to get the brakes flushed. I will say that ABS does not feel nearly as intrusive, like it's kicking in way before the traction limit has been hit.

I'll upload pictures sometime tonight. I've had this migraine since noon along with too much vicodin so I won't have any more driving impressions today lol. I'll do my best to get pictures up though. If my last couple posts are hard to understand and all over the place, that's why (the migraine that is).

I need to see if I can see the piston sizes in the pictures I took. I want to compare to the factory Brembos. If they share the same piston sizes yet the Brembos are only 12.2", there's still going to be some shift in bias. I'm hoping there's less piston area than the Brembos.

Still enjoying the quietness. I think I got used to the Rotora's noise over time, it's so nice to have silent brakes again. If my guess is right, these are going to require a much less aggressive pad so their overall street manners are much better.

One more thing, I had not seen these brakes in sunlight until I got home today. They look nice. They definitely don't stand out like the Rotoras did (due to the color). They look pretty big under stock rims but nothing draws your attention to them to notice that fact in the first place. Once you're looking at them, they look very nice and classy but no one is likely to notice besides other TL owners which is what I wanted.

I hate cars

Some quick pictures. I have tons of them.


Remember, it's raining, everything is dirty.


Kicked the Mercedes out of the garage for this install lol.









Rotora 13" vs Stoptech 13"










Rotora:





Rotora vs stock 11.8"









Mercedes kicked to the curb that time too:

94eg!

When you say pedal effort, that means increased foot pressure right (not pedal travel)?

I think I'm having trouble with my Brembos right now. Pedal travel seems to be long from what I remember. Mushy if you will. As I change foot pressure, the pedal moves and the car brakes harder, but I get very little pressure feedback at my foot. I bled the system with fresh Honda fluid and noticed no change at all. It's starting to annoy me. Especially compared to the pedal in my Civic with Stoptech pads and hoses.

I hate cars

Exactly. Right now they require more effort but travel is reduced over the Rotoras.

Bearcat94

Those look like they'll fill the wheel nicely.

How's the pad change compared to the Brembo 'quick change' set-up? Are these a 'quick change' style too?

I hate cars

I haven't seen the Brembos. The pads on these come out from the top so you don't have to remove the calipers. They do have the bolt in bridge for added stiffness which you have to remove with two small allen bolts. The Rotoras did not have the bridge so they required no tools, just two pins that slide out and a spring. How are the Brembos set up?

Inaccurate

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/3g-garage-d-094-brembo-hawk-pad-replacement-w-pics-579140/
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/d-094-diy-complete-brake-job-pics-624404/

I hate cars

Thanks. After looking at those threads, the stoptechs are the same except instead of driving out the pins, you remove two allen pins which releases the bridge. The bridge goes where the spring goes except it becomes a structural member of the caliper, stiffening it. The rotoras are open without the bridge like the brembos.

Bearcat94

Sounds like a very easy pad change for a DIY'er.

I hate cars

I think so too. I believe they use a common Porsche pad and Stoptech isn't so secretive about the pads they use so you have the option of going to the local autoparts store and getting pads and it opens up a whole new world of pads that will work.

The street pads supplied with the kit have a lot of material on them. The swept area is less than the Rotoras (from eyeballing them) so I expect a little quicker pad wear with all else being equal (which it isn't) but there's more pad to begin with which might just lessen heat transfer into the fluid.

I'm going to reserve many of my thoughts until I can get into the objective testing but from the bed-in procedure, these seem to be every bit as resistant to fade as the Rotoras with the H6 race pads. I won't know for sure until I put them through the exact same test which reminds me, I need to find the old tests for comparison purposes.

I'm really looking forward to the one stop stopping distance test from 60mph and 80mph. I think if the Stoptechs not only fade less than the Rotoras but actually reduce stopping distances over stock which the Rotoras did not, this would be the best bang for the buck brake upgrade on the market.

I hate cars

Brakes are feeling very nice. Pedal travel has gone to practially zero movement. Maybe some of the air is working it's way out. It really feels a lot more like the stock brakes as far as pedal effort.

I took a few pictures in the daylight.

I know I posted this one already but this is the bridge, with the white dot on it. The two horizontal allen pins are removed and the bridge comes out for a pad change.



So now my Rotora slotted rears match the fronts... sort of. Cutting the dust shields and painting the calipers black to match the fronts is next on the list.













I got it washed today. Looking at it from a distance, you just don't see that it has aftermarket brakes. I know this isn't what most people want but I'm so happy with the way they look. For a direct comparison, the Rotoras in a similar shot:

JETSPD1477

great write up. im in for impressions.

thanks for the pictures. the set up looks good and it looks like it has the right amount of bling.

I hate cars

Went by the motorcycle shop to pick up some more Motul 600 and apparently they close early on Mondays. Hopefully this weekend I'll have some objective numbers; stopping distance and number of stops until fade sets in.

I hate cars

I wish the edit time was longer, I'm going to give Steven Bell a heart attack with all of the one liner posts. Mods, feel free to combine posts if you wish.

One more useless subjective test... During ABS operation, there's a lot more tire screeching going on, it feels as though it gets much closer to the edge of traction now. I've complained many times in the past about ABS being too intrusive. I actually have to correct the line once in a while due to slight wheel lockup. Before it never came close to doing that. While I still don't like ABS, it doesn't feel like it's holding the braking back so bad. To say I'm happy with this system is an understatement.

Inaccurate

Thanks for taking the time to keep us plugged-in. I like how you are giving us the updates as they occur to capture your initial reactions. Granted that your long-term opinion might be different, the initial impressions are insightful.

Somewhat off topic - Here is something that I been meaning to discuss with you for a long time. Have you thought much about how the dynamic weight of the wheel assembly (tire, rim, rotor) affects the ABS and TCS?

What I have noticed thru the years as I have made the assembly lighter is that the ABS and TCS operates with quicker pulsing and with less jerking. Because the RPM of the assembly can be more precisely controlled due less inertia, the ABS and TCS modulates at a much higher frequency.

For years, I had wondered why our forum always talked bad about the TCS. Then I realized it was because they had heavy oem wheels. With my current setup, I don't even feel TCS in the slightly. There is no jerk, jerk, jerk modulation. That is how finely the system is able to modulate the wheelspin. It is still my drag racing secret weapon.

The ABS has no jerk, jerk, jerk modulation either. The ABS is noticeable as a gentle low-amplitude chatter.

Another topic of interest - I learned the hard way how sensitive the ABS is to tires having different diameters.

I engage ABS daily on purpose for fun. I have found (the semi hard way... sweat coming from my forehead from several near misses) that having different tire diameters on the front tires versus the rear tires WILL produce a braking lock-out. By lock-out, I mean that the ABS will incorrectly think that the tires with the less diameter are sliding and the ABS will engage much sooner than normal and drop the overall braking to nil.

By "different tire diameters", I mean the slightest difference as in having some tires worn down to the Wear Bars and other tires having nearly full thread depth. This is with all four tires being identical brand and size.

Once I changed my tires to have identical thread depth for all four tires, I have not had any problems like this in the slightest. The ABS performs the way it should.

I hate cars

Thanks, I know it's all over the place, kind of disorganized but I'm just throwing thoughts out there as I think of them, kind of keeping a log. I plan to organize things a lot better in a final summary once I get the hard numbers in.

I agree about the ABS, there are many factors that can change the effectiveness, more than I originally realized, that's for sure. It makes sense that even a small difference in diameter of tires can make a big difference in how aggressive the ABS is.

I was doing some reading last night to hopefully validate what I was observing, just to know I'm not crazy. Apparently it doesn't just go to a base program, it's adaptive and changes in miliseconds. It seems like changing the leverage up front is one of the worst things you can do. I'm surprised my stopping distances weren't hurt more than they were by the Rotoras. If I remember right it was somewhere around 10' from 60mph but I'll have to look it all back up. The more I drive it with these brakes, the more I'm absolutely sure the car stops significantly quicker. Before, I avoided ABS at all costs, basically threshold braking like in the old days to avoid evoking the ABS because once it started, stopping distances were going to be increased. Now, I have little probelm with just stomping the pedal and letting ABS do the work. I can't wait to try it again and see if I can beat the ABS as I did before. I think I can but I'm not completely sure.

I'm experiencing the same thing you mentioned, instead of these large jerks, it's more like a quicker, less intrusive chatter and it's much more effective. The tires even screech nearly the whole time.

Once again, I got home after the short drive from work and the front calipers were just barely warm to the touch. Rotors were pretty hot (no IR thermometer) but somehow Stoptech manages heat transfer from the rotor to the caliper very well. I doubt boiling the brake fluid will ever be an issue.

I've got a lot of thoughts but too tired to put any of them together.

94eg!

Get one of these. I use one for RC racing and it's a great tool. Inexpensive and effective.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=....c0.m270.l1313

I hate cars

RC racing? I've been seriously thinking about getting into that. I have no idea where to begin but I've heard electric has made huge leaps in performance in the past 20 years since I last had one.

94eg!

Yes, some brushless electric systems are easily as powerful as nitro nowadays (without the noise smell and mess). BUT....as with any type of racing, it's all about the rules. Racing, and building an insanely fast RC are two different things.

I raced 4WD electric on-road touring cars in a "stock motor" class for about two years and it was a blast. Even with low power, electric has insanely quick acceleration. But like anything, it's a total money pit. Even starting with a used chassis. The problem is you don't want to skimp or you will be buying again and again. This is why you always see new classes popping up. It always starts off cheap and fun. But then it gets hyper-competitive as people really learn cheats and tweaks.

Just go to a local RC race and get a feel for what the different classes are in your area. Talk to the guys at their tables. Usually some of the best drivers are just there to have fun, enjoy talking, helping people out, and teaching noobs about the hobby.

Here's my RC crap new and old (80's old): http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p53/94eg/rc/

I hate cars

That's awesome. Mind if I PM you for more details?

94eg!

Go for it.

Just prepare yourself for sticker shock.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

keeping track of this thread, interested in stopping distances once you get some good #s

also what pads are you running? what came with the set which I beleive are stoptech or did you get the RB ET 500 pads?

I hate cars

That's a good question, I reall don't know but I'm going to find out. They're Stoptech's street pads, that's all I know. I like the pad characteristics. If they hold up well once I start pushing the limits, I might keep them. That's one advantage of the BBK is you can run a less aggressive pad with better street manners and without fade. I'll report back once I find out. Actually, I have my camera at work, let me see if I can find the part# in the pictures.

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They're the 309 series which looks like a fairly aggressive street pad. If I remember right, they're the OEM pad shape of some mid '90s 911 Porsches so I should be able to buy them at any autoparts store if I need a quick replacement. So far, initial bit isn't real aggressive, very stock-like but they're very linear and the friction doesn't seem to change much if at all as they heat up.

94eg!

Dave Zeckhausen (of Zeckhausen Racing) told me the 309/Stoptech compound has an FF friction rating. Same as OEM brembo & OEM rear pads. He mentioned it's a little smoother at low-speed than the Brembo compound, which kinda explains the increased pedal effort.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The pads are the STOPTECH Street Performance pads.

StopTech® Street Performance Brake Friction (prefix 309)

Para-aramid composites provide linear response regardless of pad temperature.

100% positive molded for uniform friction material density.

Low dust formulation is rotor friendly and leaves wheels cleaner.

Scorched to raise initial cold effectiveness and ease bed-in.

100% Asbestos-free formulas.

Here is a table of info on the brake pad characteristics:

I hate cars

I'm going to try and have a full writeup done on Saturday and maybe even ask the mods to delete the journal style posts so far.

Right now I'm waiting on a few things.

Time- There's just so little of it and I want to get this right because of the potential controversy of one BBK out stopping another (judging from the seat of the pants impressions, it could be significant). I don't want to rush it. Plus, the weather on Saturday should be very close to the same as when the Rotoras were tested.

Brake fluid- I bought the last pint of Motul 600 locally on Thursday. They were supposed to get more on Monday and I just made it by today. They only had one pint left. That might be enough to finish bleeding the fronts completely. No more until Friday. I love making 3 separate trips to buy 3 pints of fluid.

Bed-in- It's done already but who knows, they might get a little better over time in normal driving (doubtful). I'm going to be hard on the system so I don't mind getting a bunch of heat cycles under my belt before really testing them.

So the goal for Saturday is to have the objective tests: Stopping distance from 60mph and from 80mph. Maybe I'll look at some mags to see if there are any other relevant speeds that would allow us to compare the TL's performance to other cars. I'll probably do an average of at least 5 stops from each speed with plenty of cool down time between stops so heat is not a factor.

Then how many 80-10mph stops in a row before brake fade. I don't want to push them past the initial fade. Last time by doing this I pushed the rears well over 1,000 degrees and I don't really want to do it again.

Possibly a full ABS vs threshold braking with ABS active vs no ABS. This is at the bottom of my list and I don't really want to flat spot the NT05s on accident.

Subjectively, there's a lot more:

Pedal feel
Pedal travel (not completely subjective)
Modulation
Initial bite
Consistency over the whole temp range
ABS performance with this brake/pad combo
Overall normal braking feel
Stability under hard braking
Whatever else I think of or whatever anyone else thinks of.

I can say right now that pedal feel, travel, modulation, consistency, abs performance, normal braking, and stability already destroy the Rotoras but I'll get into more detail and I'm curious how much better they will get considering I spent only 10 minutes total bleeding new calipers and only had 1pt of fluid to use. I still had bubbles coming out when I had to call it good because I ran out of fluid.

I know this is probably boring for many people but at least when people ask the question if a BBK is worth it or want to compare one BBK to another there will be answers, a lot of them factual.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

do you remember the tests you did for the rotoras a few years ago when you got them? that would be a really good test since it will be same vehicle and you have past information on it..

also do you think maving the motul 600 vers the 5.1 makes a difference? other than the boiling points i did not find anything in their chemical makeup.. reason I ask is because of the heat in CA and doing the multiple rapid stops.. from your info above the heat of the brakes is much less than the rotora but still curious

i forgot though why I chose 5.1 over the 600.. need to find the site but i know it had to do with being in the East Coast... I hate when I make decision to buy something on research and then forget why I made the decision