FiveLiterCheater

I'm starting to consider the Comptech exhaust....what do you guys think? It seems like thats my only option as far as prebuilt ones go...Are the gains worth the $1000 pricetag?

Meek32v6

iTrader: (7)

I would assume that you might have a good amount of cash. I say go custom but if a name, quality and warranty are what you are mainly going for, then you will pay for it with the CT price tag. There are plenty of quality exhaust shops in MD though If you can, try to make it out to the meet this Sunday. Check the Acurazine Meets section

FiveLiterCheater

Lol where is it?

Wheres a good place to get this stuff done in MD?

subinf

If you are fine with spending 1k on something you can have done by a shop for half that then go ahead and get it.

FiveLiterCheater

I'll look around....I like the comptech because it doesn't look or sound ricey....i'm trying to keep the car looking classy. Soooo if I were to go custom, I would have to get aftermarket tips and most of them look so extreme....i'll look into it though....

According to the charts i've been seeing, theres almost a 30whp gain from doing a catback exhaust w/intake on the 3G TL so it seems worth it to me

subinf

^ - You don't have to get after market tips if you want a customer exhaust. You can stick with the stock ones.

FiveLiterCheater

Really? How would that work? I kinda wanna move away from stock, but still have a good looking exhaust....I'll look into other options though

subinf

Cut the tips off the OEM mufflers and weld them onto the aftermarket ones

bTwix

Dude, search for Magnaflow exhaust. Lot's of people have custom cat backs with stock tips retained. It looks completely stock, comptech doesn't look stock. I even magnaflow toned mine down a little with a larger resonator to suit my tastes (sounded good louder but I wanted something more subtle after I added the pro-cats).

Here are a couple links:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ight=magnaflow
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ight=magnaflow

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

That is exactly what the Comptech exhaust is: classy. Yes it will be more expensive than a Magnaflow setup, but it is all stainless steel, has mandrel bends, and will fit perfectly on your car. At idle the exhaust sounds similar to stock but at WOT it is deep and throaty but never loud. I have installed a few of these locally and I am always amazed of the perfect fitment and sound. Most dual exhaust kits require at least an hour of final fitment issues, but this one bolts up and is perfect in about 45 mins.

Jeffa1

I have the CT exhaust. The only gains you'll be getting is in sound. Any gain in hp gain is so minimal, you're not going to feel it. But it's very well made and looks good.

FiveLiterCheater

Really? There are no HP gains w/ the CT exhaust?

Meek32v6

iTrader: (7)

around 10 i believe. The best way to feel anygains from minor mods like this is if you put them all on at the same time. like the intake, exhaust and maybe the pulley.

FiveLiterCheater

Damn...so the only way to actually feel any gain is to install the supercharger?

I can't afford that! LOL

I heard the pro-cats were cheaply made so I figured i'd stay away from those...

I heard about engine problems and risks w/ the pulley....

What other options are there lol I want some more power/torque

subinf

^ - evo? TL isnt that type of car

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The exhuast gives about 7-8 whp N/A and 12 whp on a S/Ced TL. Who told you the cats were made cheaply? E-Shift has sold many sets of the cats and every single set is still performing well. If you want a great mod you should get the cats: 21whp and 15 ft lbs of tq on average. There are no engine problems or risk with the pulley so please stop believing stupid internet hearsay.

varanelli

See my mods listed in my signature. I researched each in great depth before installing. There are countless threads on this forum about all of these mods. Together, these have made a real difference in the power and responsiveness of my car.

Specifically:

The pro-cats are very well made. My mechanic was very impressed with the quality. Who said they were cheaply made?
There are NO problems or risks with the pulley in our engine.

varanelli

See my mods listed in my signature. I researched each in great depth before installing. There are countless threads on this forum about all of these mods. Together, these have made a real difference in the power and responsiveness of my car. IMHO, they are worth every penny, and I have had fun installing them.

Specifically:

1. The pro-cats are very well made.
2. There are NO problems or risks with the pulley in our engine.

jayunsplanet

iTrader: (1)

If you still need an exhaust shop...

Tony's Custom Exhaust & Brakes
550 N Crain HWY
Glen Burnie, MD 21061
410-760-5108

I got my Comptech installed there w/ a resonator delete for $100. (Getting a resonator put on though next week) In the same complex as TSR Performance...

RAR

What did you do with your OEM exhaust? Keep it or have the shop throw it away? I've been thinking about the C/T exhaust but can't justify storing nor trashing an OEM exhaust with only 506 miles.

jayunsplanet

iTrader: (1)

If you're speaking to me, I have a 2nd gen TL w/ a tad more than 500 miles on it. If you still want to wait to make a decision on exhaust, you can always delete your stock resonator. Many have done it. It gives the TL a nice little grumble. A very inexpensive alternative to the sound of a full catback exhaust... Just a thought...

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

1) I told JJ the cats didn't appear to warrant the price based on the quality of the craftsmanship. I'm not displeased because the gains are there, but I wouldn't do it again.

They are not made totally of stainless steel as I believed. The original catalytic converter is before it's modifed to fit the TL, but the flanges and other parts used are made out of mild steel. Mine we're already rusty out of the box.

The welds on the cats are nothing short of sloppy. I found numerous places on the cats that had been re seamed due to a crappy welds.

Alignment wasn't good on my install either, I had to use a LOT of crowbar to get the J pipe to line up. This introduces a stress point that I now have to watch for cracks/fractures. There are a couple of folks that posted here that have reported having to cut an reweld thiers due to alignment issues worse than mine.

Another guy, againstallodds1, parted out his car to sell it. He found that when the cats were used with the CT supercharger for not many miles, and the cat cores had shrunk (burned up) so much, he couldn't even resell them.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...highlight=cats

My 2 cents... It's the only serious bang for your buck engine mod out there, it's just a shame they cost what they do for the quality of the workmanship on them.

The word from Mike at eshift is you get all of about 4 HP with the CT exhasut and the cats, so the gains are obviously solely in the cats. I couldn't justify $1K for 4 more HP. If the price went down to $700 or so, I'd grab a set for looks/sound.

2) As for pulleys, granted there does seem to be some hype over the risks, and little evidence to back it up. I'm still on the fence, and am holding a stock size UR pulley in my garage right now... but this article from noted bmw tuner Steve Dinan who knows a lot more about this stuff than any of us), makes me wonder. It may be fine now, but I plan to 100K+ this TL... and noone I've been able to find has run oe of these over 50-60K miles (even on the 2nd gen forums). Grnated he's discussing BMW engines, but the physics discussed are apply to any engine.

http://www.dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5

Your money, do with it what you will.

darksom1

Damn! I was just about to buy a pulley minutes from now! No way now. While I am sure there will be no short term probs, a year or two down the road according to this, there may be. I think I will stick to aesthetics on the interior and exterior for my mods, other than the CAI. I may go with the CT Exhaust, but not if it's loud. I can't justify spending money to get a little in gains, and a potential big problem. I know people are going to question and counter this article, but since I am a noob and fence rider on mech mods anyway, for me it is not worth the risk. I just want my baby to look good and crank up when I turn the key. The rest is not so important. Just my

RAR

Yes, thank you. I did not notice you had a 2nd Gen TL. I really want the C/T exhaust but can't imagine having a huge box stored away.

quentinc25

Well I have searched this forum and it seems to me the E-Cats gives you the most gain and doesn't change the sound much. From what I have seen the Comptech Exhaust doesn't give you a lot of gain but it does sound pretty good. I have order the E-Cats, Comptech Cat Backs, CAI, UR pully, Intake spacer and plan to put them on all at once. I am hoping to get 40+ at the wheels but who knows for sure. If I can find someone with a dyno in my area I will have it tested after the mods.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

That's just the point. There is no evidence. Go talk to typeR in the 2nd gen CL forum. He has had his crank pulley on for over 100k with not one single problem. There are countless ppl with these crank pulleys on without a single issue.

Please don't spread internet hearsay b/c you've already got one new guy thinking the pulleys will damage his engine. The stock crank pulley is not a harmonic dampener/balancer. Honda's engines are internally balanced. The stock crank pulley has an elastomer (rubber ring) to reduce Noise Vibration Harshness. So replacing it with a UR crank pulley is fine. However, if you are pushing 3-4 times your stock HP and are revving the car 2-3k over your stock redline you would need an aftermarket harmonic balancer which some companies make. At this amount of HP and at these revs you create different frequencies that even the stock crank pulley doesn't know what to do with. In fact, UR is releasing a harmonic dampener for B and D series engines and other highly modded engines, but they are set up to deal with those higher revs (and thus different frequencies) and the torsional vibrations associated with those circumstances. But for all of us who aren't pushing that kind of hp ( I push almost 2.5 times my stock HP and I run the pulleys myself without a problem; everything in my motor looked good when I pulled it apart) then the UR pulley is a great mod that helps the car rev out quicker. And there are many many people who have been running the crank pulley for over 100k without a single problem.

I am RobG

couldn't have said it better myself. nobody's reading where it says they remove the balancer and put a lightweight pulley in place. Thats just plain stupidity

darksom1

Hate to seem like a leaf in the wind, but "the new guy", if that is me, IS BACK! I will be getting the pulley and the CAI as planned. I really haven't heard of anyone having these issues, nor did the shop I am going to have these installed on say anything. So I guess it does depend on the load, and manner of usage as Excelerate said. I will be ordering this on Tuesday, as P.O. is closed now. Thanks to all for feedback.

Oh yeah, JJ, sorry to jack your thread man, but you know how we do in MD!!

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Josh,
A technical article from one of the most pronounced BMW tuners is hardly internet hearsay... Please recognize this. Did you even read the article?

Although you state you know of ONE instance of these pulleys being used for 100K, and you've had good luck with them (as a vendor) I hardly consider that credible enough to say it's "safe". I have a couple well versed tuner buds too, and they won't touch these due to bad experiences.

Again, I'm not trying to poo poo your sales, I have one in my hands and am wrestling with the risks of installation. It's important new guys are aware of the potential implications of mods they make... and this is no different.

darksom1

I just wanted you to know I appreciate that info man! I still think it's good stuff. Situational, but good. I won't be doing "heavy modding", just the small stuff like I said. No supercharger or other boosters of major gains. So hopefully, I will be safe. I am contemplating changing my pulley when I install it at 60K, sorta like the timing belt. Maybe that will keep me in "safe" running condition. What do you think about that?

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I've read that article before. It's been on other forums. Each manfuacturer designs their pulleys accordingly. BMW may actually use a harmonic dampener. I believe that they do. I remember seeing one of their stock pulleys and had thought that it was a more involved piece. The stock Honda pulley is not a harmonic balancer/dampener. Yes the elastomer will reduce NVH but it is not there to act as a balancer or do the job of an actual harmonic dampener. That thin ring cannot accomodate torsional vibration or other frequencies. Like I said in my reply, if you are pushing 3-4 times your stock power or revving the engine 2-3k over the stock redline you are not creating the kind of frequences/vibration that woudl require a harmonic dampener. If you feel I am not telling the truth call up Unorthodox Racing at 631-586-9525 and ask to speak to Shawn. I sat down with Shawn at SEMA to talk to him about the pulleys, harmonic dampeners and the harmonic dampeners they are releasing. And we had a great technical discussion and he helped me to understand this better.

You see the difference is the one member I told you about with 100k with his pulley is one more than you have shown me. And if you really want I can get a list together of everyone who is running one and for how long. The guys who generally criticize the pulleys are the guys who used to work on the dometic V8's who actually DID need a harmonic dampener/balancer b/c the engine wasn't internally balanced. And there are also those who are pushing those high HP #'s and extreme RPM's that also do need the assistance of a harmonic dampener b/c they are creating frequencies/vibrations that the stock pulley cannot handle b/c it is not a harmonic dampener itself.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Oh yea and I am not just a vendor of the pulleys. I am a user. I have a 3 pc set on my 300whp Accord i4 and when I opened up the motor to build the block there were no indications of any abnormal wear due to the use of the pulleys.

And b/c I'm a vendor and I support a product I use and sell b/c I have had nothing but good experiences, I am not credible? A question was asked; I answered it. I didn't say don't do further research but no one has given proof yet to prove to me that I should not support this product.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

The article from Dinan discusses the need for harmonic dampeners. The TL uses harmonic dampeners to reduce noise, VIBRATION, and "harshness". Vibration at resonant frequencies (RPM) are bad. It's all there. Nowhere does the article talk about HP mods or revving your rpms.

Image from article:



Strange, that looks just like the stock pulley seen here:


No sense me debating this further... I was not here to challenge Josh, only to propogate "internet heresay" from tuning experts who build performance engines, not sell bolt on parts. I've talked to UR before, back when I worked on VW TDI's. They know thier business, but won't touch this topic further than reciting what's on thier website and stating "you'll be fine".

AZ guys are bolting these on brand new barely broken in cars... Can't wait to see the results down the road. Glad you've had good luck with them on your RACE Car... which is not every TL "daily driver" you've sold a pulley too.

My lack of ability to produce a forum member who does not endorse these does not mean there's no issue. You risk the known longevity of your Honda engine with this or ANY mod... but this one particularly has documented and credible tuners saying "bad juju". The manufacturer and reseller are not always known to put forth evidence

I'm done here. I'm sure you'll want the last word, so go ahead. Good luck with your sales...

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

So b/c the article does not discuss HP mods or RPM's we should assume that that is a mute issue and therefore there is no validity to that statement? Yes the elastomer in the stock pulley is there to reduce NVH but ask anyone who installs the pulleys if they notice any increased vibration. The car in fact runs smoother.

Actually it doesn't. No where on the stock Honda/Acura pulley do I see an inertia ring or a support plate. Yes there is the elastomer (a thin layer of rubber to help reduce NVH).

I do more than sell bolt on parts. I also do engine swaps, installation, and have done engine builds too.

Actually I drove the car every day this summer and spring. I can't drive it during the winter only b/c I have Toyo T1-S and anything under 40 degrees the tires do absolutely nothing. Couple that with 275 ft lbs of tq and I would have a car in the ditch.

Well here's the thing. There is a lack of anyone to produce any substantial evidence that this is true. There are only theories. However, there are many people running these pulleys for many years without any issues. UR has been in business for over a decade and they are also developing harmonic dampeners so I don't think they shy away from the subject. Feel free to call them, anyone and express your concerns. They do more than just say it will be fine.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Kennedy, so we're on an even playing field, and not just you and I arguing, here is UR's official response to Steve Dinan's article from 5 years ago, keeping in mind now that there are now 5 more years in between this article and now that continue to prove UR's product:


Response to: The Danger of Power Pulleys & Understanding the Harmonic Damper by Steve Dinan

Before making judgments with such wide implications it is important to recognize the fact that long-term real world use outweighs theoretical assumptions. Simply stated we have two years of pre-production testing under our belt and an additional four years of real world data (over 300 million miles). Not once in this period have we ever had even the slightest problems in regard to engine longevity, not one claim or call. The fact is that if there were a problem with our product we could never have kept it from the public because of the Internet Unfortunately we have taken the brunt of many rumors flying around the Internet about our products, like this article. Now we spoke with Mr. Dinan and he apologized for any undue problems this article may have caused us as he never directed it towards Unorthodox Racing Inc. That aside we have tried to take the time to educate our owners and potential owners of our products about the facts. It always seems to be that someone's cousin whose girlfriend’s brother has a friend that had a problem with our product. Needless to say we never get a phone call, which we would think would be the first thing an owner would do if they have a problem with our product or any product they use that causes a failure. We wish that everybody would try to learn and think for themselves like the old adage “Believe non of what you hear and only half of what you see.”

First mistake is that the majority of our gains do not come from underdriving. The majority of the gain from our product comes from weight loss, removal of rotational mass from the rotational assembly. We also do not cause problems with accessory output either, as each model we manufacture is tested to maintain factory acceptable parameters accessory output. So each vehicles underdrive is tailored to what the specs call for and never exceeds 20%. This is also concurrent with information we have received for CARB (California Air Research Board) stating that as long as we do not push beyond 20% underdrive we will remain within acceptable parameters set by the factories. They also mentioned that products exceeding 25% underdrive would not pass emissions requirements because all late model cars would run in a limp mode because of reduced voltage. So Steve Dinan theory one is wrong when applied to Unorthodox Racing products. Secondly the gains are not small, we have seen on BMW E36's 5-9 HP regularly and from 13-18 HP maximum. The stock crank pulley/damper is what is called an audible harmonic damper, in laymen’s terms that means control of harmonics you would hear in the occupant compartment. Similar example is the factory use of baffles and resonators in the intake manifold. These methods are used because of the factories fanaticism about quiet in the occupant compartment. They have nothing to do with engine longevity. The flywheel has dramatically greater effect on engine longevity.

We have our own engineering and design team but we have also had direct contact with many of the OE manufacturers on this subject. We have worked with engine builders, many of who have been in the industry since the mid fifties. We also have worked with many Speedvision racecar teams with a number of different vehicle models. One was Last Minute Racings E36, driven by Alain Chebeir. Last Minute Racing ran our 4-piece pulley kit including the crank pulley for the entire 1999 season. Not once did he ever encounter a problem with our product. We also worked with The Wheel Source/Hikari Supra, driven by David Schart. That engine is very similar in many of its characteristics when compared to the BMW straight 6. They ran our 4-piece pulley kit for the entire season, and their motor as turbocharged, making considerably more power than stock, 500-550 HP compared to 320 HP stock. They never had any problems with the use of our product. We also worked with Trac Racings two VW cars, running the VR6 engine. They have run our pulleys for two seasons now with no problems. We also worked with High Speed Racings two VW's and they have had no problem whatsoever. All of these teams have disassembled their engines at various times throughout their race seasons and have found no abnormal wear or crankshaft cranking. Now those were just the road course teams. We also work with many drag racers and one Pikes Peak car (Rod Millens Supra) and none of these teams have ever had problems. Not only these facts but the fact that we have had over 100+ sets in the field on street and street/strip BMW's including some turbo models without ever having any problems leaves you to believe that Steve did not intend to include Unorthodox Racing. All of our pulleys for other vehicles have never once caused any problems, in fact aside from the examples stated above, we have over 250+ million owner driven miles out there with our product.

Steve's association of the stock crank pulley being the primary damper is incorrect, it is the dual mass flywheel that accomplishes this task. But even replacing this dual mass damper with an aluminum flywheel would not cause long-term damage as long as the flywheel were properly balanced. To give an example lets look at the Turner Motorsports Speedvision cars. Those vehicles were running underdrive pulleys from another source. To regress slightly for historical value, we had originally engineered two designs for the BMW crank pulley section, but both kits were four pieces in total. One crank pulley design was a six-bolt pulley section replacement like the way the factory designed theirs. The other design was a complete one-piece replacement of pulley sections and the hub that mounts to the crank snout. We had sent some pulleys up to Mr. Turner for evaluation. The prototype design sent to him replaced the pulley section and the steel hub section with one unit that attaches directly to the crank, as described previously. This once piece design help eliminate the weight from the heavy steel hub. Unfortunately we could not use this design for production because the aluminum would crack shortly after installation due to the high torque specification for the bolt that attached that hub to the crank snout. Now Mr. Turner instead of working with us decided he would not tell us this, which we found out at about the same time from another local owner that worked with us. Mysteriously the following race season, with other pulleys on his car they began to have crank cracking problems. Multiple motors were broken, all at the main journal before the last rear cylinder from what we understand. It was also amazing to find out that they were also using an undampened solid aluminum flywheel. It seems amazingly odd now that the breakage occurred at the rear of the crankshaft closest to the lack of damping component. But as stated before if a properly balanced flywheel would have been used the failures would not have occurred. This is supported by the fact that all the Speedvision teams, described above, we have worked with use aluminum flywheels and have had no problems whatsoever.

We have seen a few of these products and they would not even pass inspection for factory fitment even if they had the rubber isolator. The machining quality is frightening and the products are also unbalanced. These companies cut the factory timing ring off the stock pulley and remount it, for 95 or older model year BMW's, this assumes the balance of the ring once it is removed. We laser cut our timing ring and check balance during machining and after assembly. Our tolerances are held to .001" in critical areas, where we have seen regular tolerances of .005" or more from these other manufacturers. As stated before we have tried to address these issues at various times over the years through education to our dealers to FAQ's on our web page. It unfortunately comes down to the old adage that you get what you pay for when it comes to quality. There are offshore and on-shore copies of our other pulley models out there. All of these pieces are sub-standard and would not even meet factory specifications. So why do owners keep buying them, unfortunately its lack or education/understanding and plain old dollars and cents. The same problem occurs with cam sprockets with tolerances of other products, even at supposed 0 degree factory settings, not being up to even OE specifications. Meanwhile our own sprockets are held to again .001" tolerances and have timing marks that are down to the minute (60 being in a degree). Its price that drives the consumer, so unawares they are buying product that they cannot properly adjust or product that comes loose. Our pulleys are 60-70% more expensive than the offshore and onshore copies and other underdrive only products offered. Our top of the line sprockets are 60-70% more expensive than these others. We have even introduced an entry-level sprocket, which is 15% more expensive in order to be more price competitive while offering the functional quality of our top of the line without some of the additional lightening machining and extra hardware.

One other important issue is the rather random attack on a specific performance adder without looking at power adders in general. If we wish to get technical about this type of issue then all power adders must be looked at under a more rigid standard. Based on factory testing and design even changing the oil to a non-factory used oil puts the power plant or driveline into a completely different set of parameter results. Lets use intakes systems as the first example. By increasing the intake airflow response parameters are changed to some completely different set of parameters from what the factory tested or designed too. Now this does not even take into account the change in intake resonance frequencies, which again creates deviations from the factory design. This does not even take into account that the engine may make more power from this modification, which again leaves us with a deviation from parameters the factory designed the vehicle to be within. Now to be fair lets look at supercharging or forced induction for normally aspirated cars, which dramatically affects every aspect of engine function. More boost of course means more power, which in turn means more engine and drivetrain stress. This is a product that the factory never designed the vehicle to be used in conjunction with. The drive of the supercharger puts more stress on the front of the crankshaft. Turbos put more stress on the exhaust valves from backpressure and heat. Turbos are also less dependable as far as control goes, tending to spike which causes severe engine strain. Turbos also require additional expensive products like boost controllers and turbo timer. This additional stress was encompassed into the factory design of the crankshaft or the pulley system. If the factory pulley were a damper in the traditional sense the additional stress from any modifications would eliminate any special function that the factory pulley may have had because it was never designed for the additional flex of the crankshaft nor the faster spool up of the engine. Looking at other engine systems the fuel pump was never designed to deliver the amount of fuel needed based on the new demands the supercharger puts on that system. Flow might be adequate as a function of output but is the pump up to the day-to-day stress. Another parameter the factory never designed into that system. We can go on and on with how non-factory parts, even regular service parts which are non-factory can effect a vehicle. The fact is that owners that want more power assume the risks of their desire. All the products they desire to achieve these improvements where never entered into the design equation of the factory designers.

Respectfully,
Shawn Baumgartner
President
UR

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Josh,
Sorry you feel attacked. Yes there we're a couple of low blows in there as I've never seen an "Excelerate" badge on the back of a Honda/Acura (where I have seen a Dinan BMW)... I'm sure you're a talented shop doing great work. I sincerely appreciate your fervor for your products.

Interesting and compelling "other side of the coin" from UR.

As I stated earlier, I'm still on the fence, and have a pulley in hand...
Something more to chew on.

typeR

if i had it all to do over again my first mod would be a K&N drop in along with the lower resonator removal and then and Under Drive crank pulley...certainly the second best bang for the buck mod available...my engine seemed to rev more freely ,and smoother...the power was there head to toe

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

typeR for the record please how many miles do you have on your Acura and how many miles are with the underdrive crank pulley?

keepin_it_clean

Just wanted to say I have a stock size UR pulley on the car and I love it. I wish I would have done this mod sooner than later I have about 22k on the car

darksom1

Hey Josh, I didn't order my parts yet becuz the Xmas rush wiped me out! LOL! But I will be ordering mine soon enough. I was convinced before that response from UR, but it was hella good to know! Keep up the good work!